Honor Academy: WORST Marriage Advice EVER

UPDATE: If you are having trouble accessing the audio file:

1. Download audio file from Google Docs to your computer and save it in a location you can find.
2. Find the file, right-click it, choose “Rename” and remove the “.mp3” from the end of the file name.
3. After renaming the file, right-click it again and choose “Open with…”
4. Use Quicktime or another program that plays M4A files (NOT Windows media) to open the file and play the audio.

An alumnus recently sent me the audio from a marriage talk Heath gave to the women of the Honor Academy. I’m not usually shocked anymore by anything TM does because I feel like I’ve heard it all. But, after listening to this stunningly bizarre teaching, I am absolutely flabbergasted. I honestly don’t think there are appropriate words in the English language to describe this teaching, but I am going to try.

Clueless. Stupid. Ignorant. Arrogant. Unhealthy. Damaging. Narrow-Minded. Ridiculous. Astonishing. Bizarre. Did I mention STUPID?

Heath takes the top 5 needs of a man – which I’ve heard elsewhere and seem like a legitimate assessment – and in a bizarre twist, makes them into some sort of requirement for all relationships with men – even platonic and fatherly ones. Don’t believe me? Below is the list of needs and how Heath teaches the HA women to apply them.

Top 5 Needs of a Man:

5) Domestic Support – @5:10 Do you know how to clean? You can tell by your dorm room, can’t ya? You can tell whether you like to clean or not, just by looking at your dorm room…When it comes to your dorm room, that should be your ladies mansion.

4) An Attractive Spouse – @6:50 – Do you smile a lot? Or are you always pondering things? Are you always thinking deep thoughts? Or are you naturally vivacious? Do you just smile a lot? Can you train yourself to be smiley? It’s actually good to do.

– Also wearing makeup is “taking pride in God’s creation.”

3) Recreational Companion – @7:50 If you don’t like to go watch intramural sports, don’t get married. You probably don’t want to get married. If you would not want to sit down and watch some games with your husband, don’t get married.

@8:40 – Whatever your brother core is into, that is what you need to be into….whatever they want to do, because they want a recreational companion. Another way you can practically apply this – whatever you dad is into, you become into.

2) Admiration – @10:15 – He wants to be admired, he wants to be told he is the greatest person, that you are so glad you are part of his sister core.

@13:00 – When it comes to your manager, have you guys admired your manager?

@14:00 – Admire men, give them compliments. Don’t just do it to a few men, do it to all men.

1) Sexual Fulfillment – Surprisingly, I don’t disagree with what Heath is saying in this section. However, I don’t think he clarified enough how to manage different sexual expectations in marriage and left some people feeling like he said, “If you don’t have sex 6 times per week, you will be a bad wife.” I don’t think that is what he is saying here, but I understand how women could take it that way.
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For some reason, Heath seems to think that in order to prepare for marriage, you should treat everyone in nearly the same way you will treat your spouse. What?? Marriage is often the means by which God fulfills our emotional needs – we aren’t called to go around meeting the deep emotional needs of every opposite sex person in our life. Are you freaking kidding me? If the HA women follow this advice, there are going to be A LOT of confused guys around campus. If a woman starts admiring you, praising you, serving you – you are going to think she likes you. Heath basically just told every woman in the room to go start leading guys on.

Let’s say a woman starts following this teaching – what does she do after she gets married? I don’t think her husband will appreciate the way she serves, admires and praises every other guy in her path.

By its very nature and definition, marriage is a relationship unlike any other. The way I treated my roommates and friends of the opposite sex has had NO bearing on the way I treat my spouse. I don’t have the same love for them, I haven’t pledged my life to them, and I am not one with them in God’s eyes. The idea that we should somehow treat everyone the same way we will treat our spouse but without the companionship, love and other benefits that marriage brings is just bizarre. Again, we aren’t required anywhere in Scripture or common sense to do what Heath is suggesting. Why should women “admire all guys – even ones they don’t like?” This makes NO sense. Should women admire men who cheat on their wives, who can’t hold a job, criminals, etc?

This guy is teaching about relationships??? What qualifications does Heath have? His trailer club classes also count as a college credit sociology class? Are you kidding me?? I can’t think of anyone less qualified, based on this teaching, to understand human relationships.

If I critiqued everything in this teaching, this post would be a mile long. Instead I am going to leave you with:

Top 5 WTF? Moments:

@3:09 – If you love to serve guys that you don’t naturally like to be around, you’ll be a good wife.

@12:50 – To find out if you are going to be a good wife – do you naturally admire guys? Not just the guys you like, but all the guys.

@22:00 – Marriage is very easy, if you are prepared. If you are ready, it’s very easy.

@27:30 – If you marry the wrong man, you’ll have to put your kids in daycare one day. Do you realize as soon as you get married, you are saying, “I am ready to have a child because I will probably get pregnant on my honeymoon.”…If you marry the right guy, you can do your dreams AND take care of your children. But if you marry the wrong guy, you’ll have to put your kids in daycare.

@30:35 – Heath says it’s not natural to argue in marriage and compares it to stealing or hitting people….”Do you want to have arguments in your marriage? You get to decide whether or not you are going to have arguments in your marriage.”

379 Comments on "Honor Academy: WORST Marriage Advice EVER"

  1. WHAT???!!!!! I haven't had my coffee yet and perhaps have cobwebs in my head–but this has got to be the most bizarre thing I have heard coming out of HA (besides the 'no lingerie and only missionary position' thing). WTH?????

  2. Wow. Sign me up for that marriage… or, wait, I'll pass.

  3. Maurice Moss | March 30, 2010 at 1:27 pm | Reply

    AAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!

    *clawing ears*

    I don't care where you stand on the complimentarian/egalitarian thing, but that was ridiculous. I feel so sorry for the girls who now think they have to fit this outrageous mold to be good Christian wives.

  4. I wonder what would happen if during this talk you slip out to the restroom and do not return.

  5. My RSS reader seems a little bit off today… is this Failblog, Friends of Irony, or Everything Is Terrible? I can't tell which. 😛

    #4 – Is he seriously saying not to ponder or think deep thoughts; just smile really big all the time?!? Behold, the problem with the world today.

    #3 – Because of course there are no men out there who like any activities other than intramural sports.

    #2 – Wait, isn't Heath the manager? Hmmm.

    WTF 22:00 – This shows very clearly his qualifications to teach so authoritatively on marriage: He's unquestionably single.

  6. I hate this more than I hate those Twilight movies. Dirty dirty ugly talk, Mr. Stoner. BTW, he is a married man.

    I remember having been told (by Heath) that we, as married ladies, should be ready to have lots and lots of sex, whether we wanted to or not. Do not deny it to our husbands, because they had been waiting for so so so long, and with the go-light of a marriage certificate, they will be off and running. Never once was the female sexuality addressed, only this scary raging male labido that we, as good Christian wives, would need to be ready for and pander to. Jesus.

    After that fun conversation, none of the ladies wanted to talk to the guys for a few days. And I knew many of us were thinking (though no one said it), "but haven't we been waiting too?" It seemed (to me) that Heath didn't think that woman had any sexual desire of their own.

    That was about the time I started tuning out many of the female-only lectures.

  7. Nunquam Honorablus | March 30, 2010 at 3:25 pm | Reply

    Layne, I don't remember that at all… granted, I'm a fairly recent extern, so maybe he didn't have that talk during my year. That blows my mind.

    Really, Heath? We're supposed to put out, regardless? Cater to the man's every sexual whim? Guess what sunshine- that's called RAPE. I wonder how his wife feels about that ideology?

    (PS: you went up twenty points in my book for hating Twilight ;))

  8. reluctant-intern | March 30, 2010 at 3:27 pm | Reply

    I'm sorry – but this post just cracked me up. I mean I'm sure it's been awful for all of the women who actually followed his advice, but really – how could you hear that and not just laugh???

    So what he's saying is – you shouldn't like your husband. You should just like serving him. And that something is wrong with you if you and your spouse argue. So basically, let him win every "discussion" so there's no argument. Oh lordy. Just re-reading the post is giving me the giggles.

    I married an amazing guy. We have a fabulous marriage. And we argue. A lot. We're both very strong-willed people. And are arguments have made our marriage stronger. I'm a terrible housekeeper – I'm the first to admit it. And while I'm always striving to improve on that, it holds no bearing on whether or not I have a good marriage. My husband plays golf. He does NOT want me to go with him (and I do NOT want to either). That's his time to go out with the guys and have fun – he doesn't need me there.

    I mean really, there's no need to even clarify – I feel like everyone should know how ridiculous that talk was. But then again – we're talking about the HA here. And so many people believe every word that is spoken. So on that level, all I have to say is good job TM. Good job on breeding a bunch of Stepford wives. Just what every guy wants. Right?

  9. My year was the year that Heath got married to Alisa. In prepping for his wedding, he was very excited and had lots of advice and suggestions for how to handle your relationships as awesomely as he had with Alisa.

    He carefully instructed us that he would never have an "argument" with his wife. Now, I'm hoping there's some semantic maneuvering here that would mitigate his stance; however, he did say that instead of having an argument he would just leave the room.

    Sweet Moses! – the gall! I'd love to hear from Alisa about how this has worked out for them.

  10. Hmm…I wonder what Mr Stoner would say about the fact that we're about to have our first little girl and my husband is going to work part time and stay home with her while I work full time…gasp!

    I think I'm going to have to come back and comment after I fully wrap my head around what he's saying here. As a college instructor in interpersonal communication/human relationships myself, I can't believe any college would actually even remotely consider this college worthy material…bleh!

  11. reluctant-intern | March 30, 2010 at 3:32 pm | Reply

    He'd leave the room! HA! Because that's an awesome, mature way to handle conflict. This keeps getting better.

  12. Nunquam Honorablus | March 30, 2010 at 3:37 pm | Reply

    Okay, I tried downloading the file but it won't play. 🙁 Is it just me? RealPlayer just freezes up and shuts down whenever I try to play it.

    Ha, maybe it's trying to save me from the BS. 😉

  13. Phil and I are talking about how to comprehend his argument against day care. First of all, Heath is making the claim that if you marry the wrong person, your life will suck. Evidence of the life-suck? Putting your kids in daycare.

    Because obviously daycare is such a TERRIBLE TERRIBLE thing.

    Our conclusion: a similar argument would go, "If you marry the wrong person, you won't be able to decide which ice cream flavor is best! And you'll have to eat the wrong flavor ALL THE TIME! FOOOORREEEEVVEERRRR! Sucker. Shoulda trusted God."

  14. mom of ex-intern | March 30, 2010 at 3:52 pm | Reply

    OMG, I am sitting here in tears from laughing so hard–Nunquam–I love you, you make me laugh–Phil and Liz–I'm with you here…this is hilarious yet sad at the same time–I also agree with all the other comments here–this is unbelievable–RA, from how long ago was this tape? Perhaps Heath doesn't give this talk anymore–with a few years' of marriage experience under his belt…I have GOT to ask my son about if any of this was taught in Trailer Club…Doesn't Shannon Ethridge still teach the women on the 'sex' matters? wow…

    Wow–that's all I can say…we just celebrated 22 years of marital bliss and I can tell you– and we have a Godly marriage–and THIS is not good teaching for young impressional interns–marriage is NOT easy–it takes love, grace, work and dedication and more grace…and that whole part about kids in daycare? WTH? Wow…

  15. I'm not sure which year exactly, but its very recent. The alumnus that sent it to me has only been out a year or two.

  16. My thought is that Heath has, in fact, married the right person. She loves him and takes care of him the way he needs her to. But… his understanding of other women (or of other men, for that matter) is like this grand projection of himself onto the rest of humanity. If I walked around smiling all of the time, my man would think I'd flipped a sanity switch. I smile a lot, but not every moment and not because I want to look pretty. Hell, sometimes a woman looks her best when she's deep in thought. Or angry. Or asleep. Or engrossed. And sometimes, shock, they might even look beautiful without any makeup on.

    Again, because Heath likes the smiles, Heath believes all men like the smiles and therefore ladies must smile in order to have the men like them. Gross.

    It's a wonder, in retrospect, why the female interns didn't revolt after hearing this.

  17. Layne – thats a good point. There seems to be a clear pattern of this thinking from Ron, Dave and Heath

    1) This is how I act/think/behave.
    2) I am Godly.
    3) Therefore everyone else must act/think/behave the way I do in order to be Godly.

  18. RA — you could do an interesting post on that pattern and the problems with it. You could point out specific examples.

    1)I have quiet times in the morning.
    2) I am Godly.
    3) Everyone should have quiet times in the morning to be Godly.

    1) I believe in having a very clean room. . .

    1) I can run a x minute mile. . .

    And so on and so forth.

  19. Wow. There is absolutely no part of this that I agree with. My husband read this also and his response was a giant WTF? He doesn't like to watch the game. It freaks him out if I'm not expressing my feelings. He prefers me WITHOUT make-up (or as he calls it, war paint, a la Braveheart). And if we disagree, you better believe we are going to argue. Because you know what? It makes us stronger, and we love each other MORE on the other side of conflict.

    I wonder how much different this talk would have been if Heath had flipped the switch. Instead of talking about what kind of woman you should be in order to get a husband, I would be interested to hear what kind of man women should look for as a husband. Physical attributes, how he makes a woman feel, the importance of her sexual experience and expectation, how he supports her dreams and goals, if he likes to go to ballets or quilt shows (just to carry along the stereotype), how important emotional v. physical intimacy is, etc. I think it would have been a very different talk.

  20. This is literally making me nauseated. I feel sick to my stomach.

    "Can you train yourself to be smiley?"

    This left me speechless.

  21. The day cares in my area are all full. Now what should people do when they marry the wrong person? Maybe Heath could lend some insight to that delima.

    I am fuming about this teaching. The clean room video kept me laughing all day, but I just feel so angry with this warped view on marriage!

    Isn't it ironic that the man's name is Mr. Stoner and he comes up with ideas that make you think "what was he smoking?"

  22. AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!

    "How many times a week . . . .?"

    Heath obviously has NO CLUE.

    There are no words. No words for this.

    It reeks of ignorance and arrogance.

  23. Waitaminnit, waitaminnit; I just realized where I've heard this before!

    He says a wife should be constantly smiling, never thinking, delighting in housework, always doing whatever your man wants you to, never arguing, unquestioningly admiring, and did I mention constantly smiling?

    It's The Stepford Wives, people!!

    Uncanny Valley, ahoy!

  24. We can laugh about it because its so obviously absurd…but the sad thing is – interns REALLY believe this stuff! They are told to revere all leadership and they have no real access to outside opinions…

    The alumnus who sent this to me – bless her heart – was legitimately confused and feeling condemned b/c she didn't fit Heath's profile. THAT IS SICK.

    It makes me wonder what else is going on down there that we aren't aware of…

  25. I am not able to access the clip :(…

  26. He didn't give this talk when I was in the HA. Sorry I missed it!

    I wonder how many of the girls who have heard this talk are now lesbians? (Send them this way!)

  27. I recall Hasz stating something very similar with the "women should wear makeup" bit and should always look their best for their husbands. I remember it clearly because one of the interns from my class stood up and argued with Hasz about the makeup issue.

    Now, I wear makeup during the week, to work and out. But, when I am at home, on the weekends and relaxing, you probably will NOT see me with makeup on. I just don't see the point of spending all that time getting ready to sit around the house.

  28. So to start with an aside… the most beautiful women I know do not wear make-up.

    Now on to the real content… this talk is what is wrong with TM as a whole… the idea that how you have your relationship is how everyone should have their relationship… I just doesn't work that way… perhaps Heath need all those things from his wife… another man may not. Perhaps Dave needs all these rules to keep him focused, another christian may not. God may give one person a flower and another a kick in the pants… about the same issue… it's personal, not universal…

    And I would argue that women can have as much sex drive as men. 14th day syndrome… need I say more…

  29. Ah yes. I remember this talk well. What a load. And that's what I thought at the time too, thank God. Gah, it's just scary that he's still spewing this nonsense. For the sake of amusing myself, I started to think about what my marriage would be like if I tried to rearrange myself and things to fit Stoner's BS idea of blissful matrimony. SCARY. I know my husband would be confused, and not pleased. This is ridiculous.

  30. Maurice Moss | March 30, 2010 at 7:29 pm | Reply

    @RA–

    His mention of Sean Young as a CA dates this recording during the 2006-2007 year, the first year 360/Trailer Club returned from their hiatus.

  31. The year I received the talk was 2001-2002.

    Also, from what I remember, the boys received the flip-side of this from Alisa (Heath's wife). I've always been interesting in finding out what was said to them (we weren't allowed to discuss it during the internship).

  32. Heath mentions in this clip that he will give the same sort of talk to the guys…so I guess the absurd stupidity of these ideas runs both ways…?

    And yes, Dave always gives the famous "paint the barn" speech every year. The paint = makeup and the barn = your face…because "we are the ones that have to look at you."

    And then they wonder why people get hung up on externals? Give me a freakin break!

  33. Nunquam Honorablus | March 30, 2010 at 9:01 pm | Reply

    Okay, so some people here have mentioned that they've come to a point where they can laugh at the ridiculousness of TM. Good on them! Initially, I was flabbergasted. Angry, even! I was honestly trying to laugh at it, but I was too stunned.

    Though, after cooling off, I've found a suitable summary of what Heath was really trying to say, which has helped me to laugh it off and move on.

  34. "Paint the barn." Hahahahahahahahahahah. Comedy Gold.

  35. reluctant-intern | March 30, 2010 at 9:36 pm | Reply

    Eric, LOL – I said the exact same thing in my post earlier today. It's so so true.

    Now I totally get the idea of making yourself look good for your spouse. But if your husband is disgusted by you because you didn't "paint the barn" one day, then what the heck kind of man did you marry in the first place??

  36. My goodness, Nunquam. I sure hope this doesn't turn into 4chan that fast.

  37. mom of ex-intern | March 31, 2010 at 12:03 am | Reply

    Nunquam–I am so sorry if my comment made you feel uncomfortable or angry–I would never want to hurt you or any other recovering person on this blog…Please forgive me…

    About the 'paint the barn' comment–I have never heard that term before and I find that quite offensive…I'm glad to hear that a female intern actually stood up to Dave about this. 'we have to look at you'–what kind of sexist statement is that? Then the talk of sex and always smiling and doing housework–this certainly makes them sound like they view woman as objects instead of Godly women and wives….ridiculous!

    Marriage is about love and commitment, dedication and mutual respect–in sickness and in health. Thank the Lord my husband wasn't worried about my properly applied makeup and a clean house and a smiling face and regular sex when I was completely disabled for six months due to an incurable disease–He prayed for, supported, took care of and stood by me during the year-long recovery process (this happened 6 months into our marriage). And he continues to stand by and love me as I am throughout these 22 years–Now that is a Godly man! Perhaps he should teach the class…

  38. i remember stuff like this my intern and GI years in 2003-2005. i left feeling SO confused, angry, and hurt…. in some sense this has scared me away from relationships b/c i don't feel that i measure up to guys' standards… and i especially felt this way in the internship… that the girls that were dating the guys my GI year were the ones who were pretty, always had makeup on, were sharp dressers, thin, and athletic. i remember clearly thinking "oh, i'll never be good enough to date or marry another intern… i don't fit these standards.. there are girls here who are prettier, thinner, and don't have a past like mine…" now, while i sort of realize how irrational that may sound, it made SO much sense and i fully believed it while i was at TM. i am slowly working on believing that my worth and beauty isn't all associated with how clean my house is or how often i wear makeup…

  39. Maybe Dave should think about painting his own barn. We all have to look at it.

  40. @kristen, it's interesting you say that…i struggle with those same feelings of inadequacy (on an emotional level…rationally, i'm aware that i am QUITE a catch. :-D) carrie and i were discussing today…all the wives/female staff members, for the most part, are very thin and fulfill the stereotype that dave/ron/heath promote. i wonder if they are truly happy and feel unconditionally loved and accepted by their husbands?

  41. Wow wow wow.

    How chauvinistic. How sexist. I wonder if he tells the guys that they ought not to settle for anything less than a barbie doll, because Barbie is the only woman who would make a good wife under these standards. I wonder if the men treat differently the outspoken women on campus, or the ones who don't wear make-up every day, or the ones that just can't stand sports. I wonder if the men leave the HA believing that they deserve nothing less than a beautiful sex robot with no personality or interests outside of him. (Because he is the MAN!)

    And I wonder how many girls leave this talk in total despair because they just don't have it in them to like sports, or because they know that they can never turn off their "deep thoughts" long enough to be a good catch. Or because they sometimes don't always want to do only what their brother core wants to do. Or because (as was the case with me) they can't afford make-up since they are paying the Honor Academy for the privilege of working for them.

    Sigh. This is so very awful on so many levels. I really can't believe this is being taught at the HA. I remember taking issue with Dave (not out loud, of course) on the subject of make-up, but I don't remember Heath giving the ladies on campus a talk. There were plenty of other horrible things were taught about ourselves as females at the HA.

    BTW: I have a much stronger sex drive than my husband. Too bad he doesn't tell the guys that they have to sleep with their wives all the time, whenever she wants!!

  42. @gc1998 that is a good point! i wonder that too about the wives. i also remember thinking "oh, leadership thinks i'm lazy b/c i don't look as athletic etc as so and so does". that mindset partly fuled the fire of a relapse with an eating disorder i'd battled long before the internship.

  43. I think that Beth Hasz does feel loved, supported, and accepted by her husband: http://journeytowardhealth.blogspot.com/2009/06/grateful-heart.html

  44. there is so much more to say about this post, but in the end, i really don't give a (insert expletive) about teen mania. I don't give them my money anymore, I don't listen or adhere to their ridiculous and antiquated rules, and i feel pity for those people involved with such a laughable ignorant organization.

    There! I said it. That is what I really feel about teen mania and frankly, I don't even care if God changes them or not. i feel no compassion for such ignorance and self serving arrogance. They could go down in flames and I think I would actually rejoice.

    This is more than bitter. This is an outcry against preaching messages that degrade women, people of other faiths and cultures, and schools of science, history and philosophy. Teen mania is demeaning to all other ways of life outside of their way, and they claim superiority in the name of love and truth.

    This my friends, is what I consider sin in one of its most violent and subtle forms.

  45. I'm so sad sitting here. I was there for this teaching… This is the hardest thing I struggle with for sure in my walk with God. If anyone's got advice (especially some guys… that would be nice) shoot it my way.
    I HATED talking to guys after T.M. Before T.M. it wasn't a problem. I had a ton of guy friends. Now I just think guys are jerks. I wish I didn't. I really wish I could talk to guys like they are normal people, but there were SO MANY RULES about guy/girl relationships I get so confused about what's right and what's wrong.
    You know what it is? They taught us how to manipulate each other. They taught girls to respect/honor all men and guys to be all tender and manly (be girls hero's) and really, it was just a completely math equation.
    Now I just think guys are jerks and I can't stop treating them like they are amazing, even though I can't stand them.
    What is that?!

  46. I had some trouble downloading the audio, too. I think it's because Google Docs tried to make it an MP3 file when it's actually an M4A file. Here's what I did to make it work:

    1. Download audio file from Google Docs to your computer and save it in a location you can find.
    2. Find the file, right-click it, choose "Rename" and remove the ".mp3" from the end of the file name.
    3. After renaming the file, right-click it again and choose "Open with…"
    4. Use Quicktime or another program that plays M4A files (NOT Windows media) to open the file and play the audio.

    By following those steps, it worked perfectly for me. 🙂 Hope this helps someone else.

  47. I'm not sure where to start. I don't have an issue with females submitting to males in marriage. I don't have an issue with a more formal, "taken in hand" marriage. However, this goes beyond submission into… robot land? How well can a male really know his wife if even her expressions are trained and she has no social life outside of him? It sounds like he wants a pet and not a wife. Or a blow up sex doll.

  48. Mom- The intern that stood up to Dave was actually a MALE intern who thought the "Paint the barn" crap was ridiculous! That made it all the better! 🙂

  49. This is probably for another post altogether, but I realized about halfway through my internship that I was having an entirely different experience there than the male interns around me. The way the ladies were treated (myself being a lady) almost led to my walking out of HA for good. I just kept thinking to myself, "If my dad was sitting here listening to the things these men and women are saying to me, would he still want me to be here? Or would he take Heath Stoner outside and sock him in the face for trying to make me feel like I'm less of a person."

  50. This is good stuff. I've been asking God for a long time why I feel certain ways about marriage and relationships. It's good to get some answers that register with my heart.
    It's nice to get some freedom. Just being able to put some light on what's been going on since my TM days has really helped me. I'm not to the point where I've totally got things straight but I am sensing God's presence. He is definately doing a work.
    I left the HA early but the damage had already been done. I was present during the "Marriage Talk." I can't even put into words what trouble my believing and accepting the content of that Talk did to my heart. I also pushed away My best friend, the man I wanted to spend the rest of my life with, because we didn't meet the "TM standard." I thought I had to go "Save" the World and He just wanted to live and be Led by God. He wanted a Love Story and I thought I had to have a Black and White picture of exactly how my life would pan out. At the time and being fresh out of the HA, I didn't think "being Led by God" was a good enough 5 year plan.
    Don't get me wrong. I don't live in the "What might have been" anymore. I am however, just realizing the Great Love I threw away because I was afraid of being the wife of a man who was that amazing. I knew I could never meet up to what "He needed me to be." (so I thought). He just wanted me to be with Him. He just wanted to love me. I just couldn't accept that to be the truth back then.
    He got tired of me putting him on a "pedal stool." Before the HA I was a challenge to Him in many ways. He loved my "deep thoughts." He couldn't understand why after the HA I thought I had to be something I wasn't.
    I don't know why I am sharing all these but I hope it helps someone to see the affects of "Life After the Honor Academy." Maybe it will help someone in a similar situation to let go of the hurtful teaching and move forward with the one that they love.

  51. " He got tired of me putting him on a "pedal stool." Before the HA I was a challenge to Him in many ways. He loved my "deep thoughts." He couldn't understand why after the HA I thought I had to be something I wasn't. "

    YES!!!
    That's what it's like! Wow. PERFECT!!!!!!!
    I'm so glad I read that!
    When-ever I'm around guys all I think they want is to be 'praised.' uhg. It makes it so hard to talk to them. Like, to actually have a conversation, cuz I think they're all full of themselves. They didn't has for that, it's just what was ingrained in my head at T.M.
    Not just by Heath either. Bro core adviser's. Managers, R.D.'s, teachers. I have to say I didn't really see this from Dave though.
    Except the whole 'not wanting to be alone with a girl' thing.
    It was so refreshing the other day, I went into a male counselor's office, he was a Christian, we were just talking about paper work, he SHUT THE DOOR. Like completely. lol. Maybe that sounds dumb that, that was so amazing to me, but at T.M. if you shut the door and you were alone with a guy the automatic assumption was that he wanted to rape you or you wanted to seduce him.
    "Dear God help us break that mentality!"

  52. WTH?!?! So I was like…naw it can't be that bad. Listened to this and I was agreeing with what RA said when it comes to the points Heath was trying to make. A few additional things that I don't agree with, he is taking the scripture Matthew 20:28 out of context. The scripture has to do with servering others not just your wife. He puts it in context that it if you aren't serving your wife in such a way then it is horrible. I do think you should serve your wife, I don't disagree with that, but he makes it seem like this scripture was focused towards your marriage. Then I hear Heath say that individuality isn't going to work in a marriage.

    A recreational companion?!?!?! "If you don't like recreational sports then don't get married"? WTH? seriously? if my wife isn't into sports then I am fine with that. I don't think that is a reason to tell these women that they shouldn't get married cause they aren't into recreational sports. Then he says that you can't be your own individual and that if you want to do what you want to do then the marriage will fail. LOL, if my wife wants to go hang out with her girlfriends and have a good time then she is more than welcome to. I am not gonna go spend girls night with her and what she enjoys doing isn't going to cause our marriage to fail. I like her because of who she is, not who she tries to be to make me happy by doing things I may enjoy that she doesn't. PLUS, if I want to go spend guys night with the guys..i don't want my wife there.

    I am not gonna marry some girl that isn't my type. If he were to say to marry your type of guy that you are interested in then that would be completely different. But he isn't saying that, he is saying that you should conform to the things your husband likes. That is crap.

    And the arguing part..yea that is crap too. If you go by this then you won't get anything resolved with your spouse.

  53. I read this, listened to the audio file, and have this to say:

    Heath, you are my hero. Thank you for perfectly portraying what a Godly marriage should look like. In that women are entirely to 'humanlike' in marriage, because we all know that female sex drive is just a myth. Marriage is clearly only an excuse to have lots and LOTS of hot missionary sex, and nothing more.

    Women getting the short end of the stick? They sometimes get BABIES out of the deal. That should make those subhumans delighted they get more domestic duties from it all. More stuff to clean, take care of.. because that's all women are good for, amirite?

    It's also a good point that every single man ever likes sports. If you don't, you must be gender-confused. And need counseling.

    Pff, good on you, Mr. Stoner, for pointing out that deep-thinking women are stupid. Nothing good can come from letting the women think on deep things. They'd probably just come up with terrifying concepts, such as super-babies, or monster vacuum cleaners. Men should be the only deep-thinkers.

    Smiles ARE the only thing that's attractive.

    Man, what a good teaching from HA. I'm gonna take off my shoes right now and go make a peach cobbler.

  54. Those who marry will face many troubles in this life.
    – 1 Corinthians 7:8

    …arguing is normal. Point Blank. 🙂

    But we gotta learn to FIGHT FAIR. Not call somebody names while we argue or point out past mistakes. Address the issue and not the person. So yeah, arguing in marriage is normal. And we can choose to forgive and love, and move on. But no marriage is perfect. Perfect marriages simply don't exist. But healthy, happy ones do. 🙂

    I was an HA kid. 🙂 When I got married, I thought I wasn't supposed to have any arguments, and that there was something wrong with our marriage because we argues so much. Hmmm…but then I watched "Laugh Your Way To a Better Marriage" video series with my husband, and we realized, that hey, arguing really is normal, and it's okay. There's nothing wrong with us. 🙂 Great video by the way. I would recommend it to anyone. I'm not saying that HA is bad either, just some things were a little of skew. I liked being @ HA. But somethings you just gotta take & find our for yourselves, and you can't put all of your eggs in one basket.

    When I was there I was taught that the first year of your marriage was supposed to be great, and if not, then you weren't prepared for marriage or there was something wrong with it. But, I've come to the realization, that it's perfectly normal to argue and not agree with each other on things. Especially in your first year of marriage, you put two people from different upbringings, different cultures, parents, rules, your going to have some squabbles. That's NORMAL. 🙂 Our first year…was a lot of learning and a lot of arguing. And we had to forgive each other 24/7 haha. 🙂 But we love each other, and we are happy to be a part of each other's lives. 🙂

    I also dated my husband before the HA for 4 years, broke up at the HA, and then we got back together afterward. And now we are happily married. He waited for me, and I was told that he was the wrong guy by many people, but I knew he was always the right one for me. 🙂 Really, the only people that matter in the approval process when it comes to you getting married is you and God. Don't live by everybody else's opinion, I know that if I did, I wouldn't have been married to an amazing man right now. 🙂 Take people's opinion's with a grain of salt, consider what they say, and if it's not for you, oh well, chuck it out the other way. 🙂 Don't get yourself all worried. It's not worth it. Just pray about it, and God will show you the right way. And stick to your gut so you won't live with regret later. 🙂

    ..So now, we are happily married. And on our journey to have a happy, healthy, loving, lasting marriage. And he's my best friend. And we are 50/50 we treat each other as equals. And..we don't need to have sex all the time..you have sex when both people want to, it's a mutual agreement, not forced. 🙂 We love each other just as is. We are growing. And maturing …together. 🙂

    The important thing that the HA thought me was to see God as my LOVER, and that was a concept I couldn't grasp for a while. I was like really? I can only see God as my father. So learning to love God as my lover would be what I came away with from my HA year. 🙂

  55. I worked in Exec as one of Ron's assistants. I've always been a tomboy and I hate wearing skirts or dresses. During my year, women weren't required to wear dresses, except at banquets…

    Anyway, during my performance evaluation, my boss told me to "show a little more leg." We had a playful relationship, so she was saying it in a funny way – but regardless, I was told that I should wear more dresses/skirts even though I was clearly within the dress code.

    Why would it matter if I dressed more "feminine"?

    And where the heck was I supposed to get money to go out shopping anyway? I was giving all my money to TM.

    I'm pretty sure if anyone said that kind of thing in a secular environment, you'd have a harassment suit on your hands…

  56. Oh. My. God. i shouldn't be surprised, but somehow I am. If there's one thing TM got wrong, even waaaay back in the day when some of us hung out at Ron's house and helped fold his laundry (before Katie had Cameron), it was romantic relationships, but THIS is a new kind of twisted. wow. glad my marriage (and husband!!) of nearly 12 years isn't ANYTHING like what is described here. phew!

  57. Oh yeah 13:16. This will help your husbands one day not get involved in a midlife crisis.

    It's OUR job to keep our men faithful. Forget his own sanctification, we better work our asses off ot make sure he never has to lift a finger in the house, or else he might stray and sleep with a woman in his office!! If we as women don't let him have a seat right when he walks in the door as we chase around our three children, then we aren't honoring our man and he's going to go to the office, sleep with somebody else, and it's all because we don't admire him enough.

    ORRR it could be because he's a fallen, sinful creature. It's not my lack of admiration for my husband. Instead of playing Barbie with my husband, I'm going to pray for him daily that the Lord would have mercy on him and he would resist the temptation in his workplace (should it exist).

    This isn't to say I won't admire my husband. But, I don't need to pay him a compliment every time he walks in the door to keep him around. Forget proverbs 31 where the husband honors his wife for her good character… it's all about how good we make him feel about his depraved and dispicable self. Hello, pride. My name is Andy. nice to meet you.

    I also know that almost all of this is INSANELY grammatically incorrect. Promise I'm not a moron… just slightly pissed and I wrote it hellaaaa fast =) Don't really feel like proofing, either.

    I'm getting cynical. I need to go repent.
    Grace and peace, my friends.

  58. Nunquam Honorablus | April 5, 2010 at 7:32 pm | Reply

    Angela- sometimes you just need to get it out in order to come to terms with your reactions to things such as these. Unfortunately, us TM kids tend to try to work [shock, disbelief, anger, cynicism, letting go, and moving on] into one fluid movement, which only leads to burying resentment deeper, instead of actually resolving our issues.

    Really, you're in a safe place to let that come to the surface and work through it. Welcome aboard, matey!

  59. I'm with Angela right now!!!! (Though as for being 'grammatically incorrect' I'm surprised Nunquam hasn't corrected me yet. lol. I totally don't EVEN pay attention to the rules 🙂
    And. After really thinking over these few post about marriage. I am left. Quite surprised. Even at my own self myself. Thinking….
    WTF!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?

    (And I will NEVER say that again. lol.)

    I totally believed ALL OF THIS!
    Not growing up a Christian and never actually seeing a solid marriage (Really anywhere in my life), I was just looking for what God wanted. And T.M. isn't the only one promoting this stuff either. But I did hang on their every word.
    I'm so Glad the Holy Spirit does not ever leave us!!!! And even though I believed a lie He is now going to allow this to be used for His glory!
    Praise, Glory, Honor be to the God of Hope! "Jesus. You deserve so much more than I can give You. How is it even possible my weak love ravishes Your heart?"

  60. TruthInLoveSucksSometimes | April 6, 2010 at 4:16 pm | Reply

    Does anyone rememeber when David Hasz admitted (in one of the marriage talks) that he wasn't always happy with with wife?
    (Spoken in regards to marriage isn't always perfect and you are not always happy, etc, etc.)

    Next class he was heavily retracting. But I don't see why.I thought it was one of the most honest things he's ever said. Sometimes people are just not happy with anything on a certain day, or two, or three.

  61. What? This is all I can say. I see a total perversion of the scripture and a slap in God's creation of man and wife together. I speak of Ephesians 5:25 Husbands love your wives like Christ loved the church. For Christ loved the church so much he gave himself up for it.
    So this being said it looks like that these TM men wish to slap the face of God and demand obedience and servitude from there wives without giving up any of themselves or their wants for their wives. I am a happily married woman for over ten years to a Christian man who give all to me and so I give all back to him in return. I think this is what the scripture is talking about. And yes I have used daycare and also stayed home with our kids. No change in love for my spouse effected the place of my children during the day. TM needs to get back to the scripture and read it all before they give any type of advice

  62. So his sister-in-law got pregnant on her honeymoon and that means she married the "wrong guy"?! Either they didn't use any kind of birth control (and then it was a choice to potentially become pregnant because they are presumably both adults who know the consequences of such actions) or they used birth control which wasn't effective. Using his logic, if she had married the "right guy" her BC would have worked. And all of you who are married and did NOT conceive on a beach in Bali, pat yourself on the back for successfully choosing the "right" spouse! How does that even make sense?

    And trying to tell these ladies to ask their friends for advice on how they can "do" their eyes and apply blush is just plain creepy. He should have added that all men want a "leggy" blond with blue eyes.

  63. Liz (Engskow) Davila | April 7, 2010 at 3:44 pm | Reply

    This teaching is a complete and utter failure, with "shotgun scriptures" taken completely out of context.

    The thing I am most amazed at is the authority he speaks with, especially with the daycare comment. I'm sorry, but that is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard. And, the constant reference to "marrying the wrong guy".

    To me, it seems like those at TM are consistently drawing a line in the sand and teaching that if you go past it, or make a "wrong" decision, you will be beyond the grace of God. Maybe that's why they all still live at the compound? They're scared to enter the real world because their teachings won't hold up.

    You know what you need to make a marriage work? Love and TONS of forgiveness and understanding. We are not supposed to hold checklists up to each other to make sure that we are living up to them, based on scriptures that are taken completely out of context.

    The advice he gives is laughable … twisting scripture to reinforce his advice is not.

  64. I was there many years ago as an intern, and I knew, once the brainwashing wore off, that there was something wrong with the place. I have been reading many of these posts, and it is scary how much BS they filled my head with. They destroyed my personality, filled my head with garbage, and sent me out into the world to tell everyone else to be like me. I am just one of thousands they have done it to. The interns are still just kids, most of them only 18 or 19. It is not fair to fill impressionable people with such nonsense.
    I have been married for a little over 5 years now, and my marriage is nothing like what he describes, sometimes my wife and I fight just because we are frustrated, and by the end of it, the stress has been released and we feel better. There is something wrong if someone walks around smiling all the time, people need to be able to express emotion or show they have a thought in their head. My wife likes sports, I find them intensely boring to watch. I don't want to be served. My wife is my equal, not my servant. And last of all, my kid was in daycare so my wife could go to school, not because our marriage sucks.
    I am pretty sure I went on a mission trip with him as our lead. I remember them saying some weird things, but I don't remember him being so wrong.

    It is nice to read that other people have had the same issues. Had Ron not sent out the reply email, I never would have looked for the one stating that this site existed. I have spoken a little bit to my wife about this experience, but she grew up a different religion, and finds Christians of this sort quite strange, so she does not understand. I just hope that most see through this garbage, and that men teaching things like this are seen for what they truly are.

  65. Anon 12:08

    VERY Well Said,

    "I have been reading many of these posts, and it is scary how much BS they filled my head with. They destroyed my personality, filled my head with garbage, and sent me out into the world to tell everyone else to be like me."

  66. The idea isn't that anyone who didn't happen to get pregnant on their honeymoon married the "right guy". He's suggesting that maybe kids should be more prepared for pregnancy and the costs of raising a family BEFORE getting married and getting jiggy with it.

    You can say he's a sexist bastard all you want (I have always had issues with Heath Stoner's teachings)… but he isn't the only one who thinks that parents leaving the early education and moral upbringing of their children to daycare providers is a problem. Is it sometimes a necessary problem? Yes? Maybe? I don't know. I do know that my husband worked two jobs for a year so that I could quit my miserable office job and care for our daughter when the "Oops, the BC didn't work" shit hit the fan. He was passionate about me being a stay-at-home-mom. I think that rocks.

    The 5 needs he outlined were MOSTLY correct. His explanations were totally daft… and the way he pigeonholed men as one-dimensional creatures who only like sports is pretty ignorant… but men need those things. Does not getting those things all the time give a husband the right to be a total jack-ass to his wife and deny her the things she needs? No. Should men stomp around and demand sex 6 times a week because they need it? No. But should a wife's attitude be to love and serve her husband? Hell yes. I don't find this easy to do. But I want to do it. Because in the end I know that my husband got the shorter end of the stick in God's expectations. He's been called to sacrifice himself and give himself up for me. The least I can do is play video games with him and tell him how awesome he is, because he's the best man I've ever known.

    I am all about this cause. I think Teen Mania is pretty jacked up… and I had a horrible experience there as a result of similar ignorance… but try to avoid going to extremes and sensationalizing things that only detract from the more important issues.

  67. I hate this teaching more today than I did a few months ago. Thank God. He's done such a work in my heart on this area.

  68. this is disgusting and revolting and beyond enraging. this is teaching a woman to become a victim. abusive men LOVE women like this: submissive, timid, and refusing to stand up for themselves. i can only imagine the horrible men women will end up with if they follow heath's advice!
    i remember my intern year heath came to talk to our core and he said something about how a "good christian wife" will have sex at least once a day. a better wife would have sex each and every time her husband wanted, including multiple times a day even if she didn't feel up to it.
    THIS IS STRAIGHT UP ABUSE! every woman has feeling, preferences, and rights! if you don't WANT to have sex you are absolutely NOT required to! how ridiculous!!! what kind of sexist, dominating teaching is this?? and i would like to add, VERY unbiblical!! the bible teaches that men are to submit to their wives! yup, that's right. i said submit. the bible specifically says that men are supposed to submit as well as telling women to submit. men are charged to love their wives in the same way that christ has loved his church, even to the point of the husband's death. so heath, how is it loving to demand of your wife to be your sex slave? because forcing someone to perform sex acts when they don't feel like it is NOT loving!

  69. i just have to say that the biggest problem i had after the HA was definitely in my relationships with men. the HA messed me up in that area. i became so scared of men and contact with them, because i was so sure that every word and action i did was causing them to lust for me. i couldn't talk to men. i avoided my co-workers. if they talked to me i got very embarassed and thought they were hitting on me. (totally not true!) it was ridiculous! i was totally casual and comfortable with men before the HA. luckily, after about a decade, i've FINALLY gotten back to a normal interaction with men and i can honestly say i have male friends that do not want to date me and i do not want to date them! hooray! 🙂

  70. I'm months late on this, but i was clicking around on the posts with the "marriage" tag (I'm a newlywed, what can i say, lol)

    I did a quick search on this page and it looks like no one has mentioned this (i couldn't download the audio so i don't know if Heath said it in his talk,) but those 5 things that he says a man needs are actually from a book- aptly titled "His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage" by Willard Harley. It's actually been a mainstay in Christian marriage counseling circles for a couple decades. This does NOT mean that i agree with all of it, for sure, but it's not all Heath's fault here;-)

  71. I remember this talk so so vividly. I was there the same year as Layne and remember a deafening silence in the dorms after this chat with Heath. As if we were all thinking, "This is what we have to look forward to?" (at least this was my perception.
    The relationship talks were especially crushing to me because I was so looking forward to learning how to have a godly marriage/family. I grew up with physical and sexual abuse, neglect abandonment,and poverty. The thing I wanted most was to have a good Christian husband and children to love unconditionally. I had no clue what marriage was supposed to look like. I was all ears. Heath went on to speak about in laws and how important they would be in a marriage. He's best friends with his father in law and "where a girl comes from and how she was raised says a lot about her character."
    The first chance I had, I ran to the back forty and wept for hours.

  72. FLYING

  73. Ugh, why does John and Stasi Elderidge seem to have the only marriage teachings I look up to? What they say about women completely goes against what that Bible says. I mean, your sex life is between you are your husband. Ron Luce should have no handle on it.
    I mean, wouldn't that be just like inviting a third party into your bed? Question……

  74. There are SO MANY things wrong with this but I will just state one that stood out to me: in my entire marriage (almost three years) my husband has not once watched a single game involving a ball. In fact, he has maybe watched a total of 10 hours of TV total since we've been married. That is not where our interests lie. We like to do other things together. To make such a broad, ignorant, ridiculous statement such as "If you don't like to watch sports, you should not get married" is beyond my comprehension unless you're just a complete idiot.

  75. The sad truth is the majority of Christian speakers have extremely quietly unsatisfied spouses in the background. Very few have proven themselves worthy to lead others on this topic. With that said there's still much value in many points he makes such as:

    1. Develop good marital habits now instead of assuming you'll change later because you probably won't. AKA dirty dorm room.

    2. Stay attractive, sadly good advice not given enough in Christian circles. Attraction is extremely important and not talking about it doesn't make it go away. It will make your spouse go away if you don't though….

    3. Couples that play together, stay together.

    4. Respect your husband, duh if you don't know men need there wives respect you are probably cluelessly working on your 3rd divorce.

    5. Manage sexual expectations, alot of this is solved with #2 automatically. I always hate when newly divorced women go from repulsive to attractive again in what seems like a day. They are willing to do that for a complete stranger but not their own husband? Sad… And the opposite when men are unsatisfied with how their wife looks as they work on their own 60 inch waist line is just chilling.

  76. "2. Stay attractive, sadly good advice not given enough in Christian circles. Attraction is extremely important and not talking about it doesn't make it go away. It will make your spouse go away if you don't though…."

    Ummmm… a resounding no.

  77. A very pessimistic view of marriage, that.

    1. I've changed (for the better, though I say so) more in the past six years of being married than in the previous 25 years of being single. "Dirty dorm room" my eye.

    2. Part of being married–heck, part of having a healthy relationship of any kind–is seeing each other when you're not at your most attractive and loving each other anyway.

    3. …OK, I'll give you that one. A bit telling that we need to be advised to enjoy life, but whatever.

    4. When somebody truly merits respect, they don't have to say "You need to respect me."

    5. There's a whole lot more to attraction than physical appearance. When a relationship focuses too much on that, it's a sign of superficiality.

  78. If your husband/wife is just their for your clothing size, attraction level, ect they aren't really a spouse anyway!

  79. Wow! I can't believe I just found this site. I was never an intern(thank God) but I was a team leader many times. I've had many bad experiences as well and thinking of sending my story here.

    Anyway, I find this post so hilarious and sickening at the same time. Gee whiz. I've been married for 9 years and though not perfect, we make it work. And I can honestly say that I rarely ever wear any make up. I have no problem of submitting to my husband but these ideas from this teaching are so absurd and laughable. Not to mention sexist. I do remember my co-Team Leader in one of the trips. Him and I clashed because he was such a chauvinist, he was an intern. This post sort of reminded me of him because he would spout similar things about relationships, giving advice etc. And of course I disagreed. Anyway, thanks for this, I shall read some more.

  80. (didn't read all comments but didn't look like anyone pointed this out) I immediately recognize where those 5 Needs come from- http://www.amazon.com/His-Needs-Her-Building-Affair-Proof/dp/0800719387/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1342163306&sr=8-1&keywords=affair+proof+your+marriage This book nearly destroyed my relationship with my husband. I read it in HS b/c my divorced mother had it LOL! For some dumb reason, I kept it around. However women apparently don't have sexual needs, just a need for "affection", so it made me feel even more distraught over my seemingly unusually high sex drive (aka I have one even though good girls "shouldn't"- we won't go into my inner conflict over having premarital sex with my then BF now hubby who I've been with almost a decade). I luckily also read "The Five Love Languages" which acknowledges at least to some degree that women can need the "language of physical touch" and that can be in the "dialect" of sex.

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