What About Parents Who Approve of ESOAL/PEARL?

Several parents visited the Teen Mania campus to watch or participate in the ESOAL/PEARL event. Heath Stoner interviewed this parent, who participated with his daughter.

This man is well-spoken and believable. After watching his interview, even I want to believe him! He seems very reasonable and calmly assures us that there is no brainwashing going on at Teen Mania and that everything is perfectly Biblical and safe.

However, I found the differences between his interview and his daughter’s interview alarming.

Through sobbing tears, she says,

“On Thursday, he threw out his back and he just kept going…”

“On Friday, we did the log thing again and that was really hard to watch because his back was already hurt but he just like took it…and the Lord just wrecked my heart for him. Just the example and I’ve always looked up to him but just in a new way of him completely humbling himself, completely becoming nothing, completely leaning on the Lord as his strength; completely, even past when his body said no. And he didn’t ring out last night because he couldn’t go on. He rang out last night because he wanted me to grow and he was praying about it so he rung out.

So the man that assured us everything at ESOAL was Biblical and safe threw out his back and still refused to listen to his body? Seriously????

“No, no, I’m not brainwashed. I always throw out my back doing spiritual activities and refuse medical care. Since my daughter is crying about how awesome I am for doing that, this shows that ESOAL/PEARL is great!”

364 Comments on "What About Parents Who Approve of ESOAL/PEARL?"

  1. wow good catch I didn't notice that that was her dad. I also noticed that while they started off by showing 4 men who were doing the event with their daughter they only interviewed ONE of them after the first day and he got interviewed repeatedly.

  2. "even past when his body said no."

    When will Teen Mania STOP TREATING THIS LIKE A GOOD THING!!!! Your body has physical limits. There is a difference between being lazy and being in severe pain. There is a difference between good pain and bad pain. Good pain is when your body says, "Wow, I really don't like this because I'm out of shape! You're going to be sore tomorrow!" Bad pain is when your body says, "STOP! If you continue this activity you are going to be severely injured!"

    This idea that we need to keep pushing when our body is saying NO causes people to ignore bad pain–the pain that is your body's way of warning you bad, bad things are about to happen! I will not EVER support this event as long as TM praises and encourages people who ignore bad pain–especially when it's teenagers who may not know better or understand what their bodies are really trying to tell them.

  3. Nunquam Honorablus | September 21, 2011 at 4:03 pm | Reply

    First off, their relationship sounds beautiful. The fact that this father loves his daughter enough to participate in something like PEARLSOAL alongside her is touching.

    That being said, was it necessary? Not to discredit where the father's heart was- I'm sure he just wanted to share what he believed to be (and could very well have been) a trying experience to bring them closer to God.

    But was the method necessary? Do the ends justify the means? I don't think so. Mixed feelings man. Happy that the dad cares so much, just saddened that this whole event is supposedly a good thing.

    Also- yes, what Julie said.

  4. PSOAL had a lot of injuries this time, they just weren't publicized.

    Also, having 6 kids doesn't mean that you are a infallible as a parent (can we say octomom?). This man is inticed to say that PSOAL is good because he decided to stay.

    mouse

  5. Nunquam Honorablus | September 21, 2011 at 4:42 pm | Reply

    LOL PSOAL

  6. If you listen to both interviews together, the father states that they "have had a really great relationship for 18 years", and then the daughter states that she didn't think he would come because he was busy, that she's close to her mom [and presumably not her dad], and they've been "really separated" for the last couple years.

    That leaves 1 of 2 options:
    1) This guys IS NOT able to accurately gauge what's happening around him, and therefore his judgement is suspect.

    2) This guy IS able to accurately gauge what is happening around him, and he's one of those Christians that presents a pretty face and covers up the bad.

  7. Speaking as somebody with chronic back issues, to "just keep going" after you've injured your back is about the worst thing you can do to it. Even a minor back injury to a healthy person can become very severe if you don't take proper care of it right away. That poor guy is in for a world of hurt.

    Any activity, doctrine, or leader that encourages you to ignore back pain is– what's the opposite of "perfectly biblical and safe"? Oh yeah: abusive and stupid.

    Dear TM: If you want to prove that PEARL is kinder and gentler, then cover this guy's chiropractor bills, because they're going to be a lot more expensive than they might have been thanks to you. Of course, to do that you'd have to acknowledge that somebody got badly injured even with your alleged new improved safety precautions in place. So what will it be? Admit that you don't really care, or admit that you didn't really care?

  8. lol this is funny. But my thing is Who the crap cares. We're no longer apart of TM, and havent been on campus in awhile, so we cant really say haha. I left TM 10 years ago because of issues, and I choose to focus on the future, not the crap in the past. Too many people on here living in hurt and the past. I learned to overcome my hurt, and I did that by stop thinking about TM and focusing on other things that helped me grow. – Jeff

  9. Jeff, it's not about living in the past. It's about recognizing people are walking away from Teen Mania with deep hurts that have affected them mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and physically. And Teen Mania continues to churn out more wounded interns every year. Those of us who have been wounded can and do receive healing. But that doesn't mean we sit quietly by as the abuse hurts a new class of interns. I use examples like this all the time on here, but if there was a pedophile who sexually abused you or your child, would you keep your mouth shut about what happened and let it continue? Would you see that person with another child and say to yourself, "Oh well. It happened to me 10 years ago and I'm not living in the past. Too bad for you, kid!" What you are suggesting is that it's okay for Teen Mania to keep hurting people because you aren't there personally!

    "Too many people on here living in hurt and the past. I learned to overcome my hurt, and I did that by stop thinking about TM and focusing on other things that helped me grow." The people on this website are either sharing experiences that they have healed from to encourage others who are in need of healing or they are going through the healing process. Healing does not happen by ignoring the wound or pretending it didn't happen. Sometimes, you have to get in there and irrigate the pus and infection. And that can bring to light some really unpleasant stuff. But it's necessary to get the ugly, infectious stuff cleaned out so that true and complete healing can occur.

    If you don't feel like you have anymore healing to do, you don't care about others who are wounded, and you don't care that TM is still hurting people, then this probably isn't the website for you. If you don't like what we're saying, don't read it!

  10. @Jeff

    It's true, we're not part of TM anymore, but many people have been hurt by them, and trivializing their — our — pain is incredibly insensitive. Just because you have overcome your hurt does not mean everyone has. For many, simply "not thinking about TM" isn't enough due to the crazy ways of thinking TM engrained into us. Being able to talk openly and honestly about the things that went on is an important part of the healing process for many of us.

    But just as important as helping people get healed from the hurt they experienced from TM is advocating to prevent such hurts from taking place in the first place. We don't want people going through the same stuff that we did, and so we still focus on TM to try to get them to stop engaging in practices that cause the hurts to happen in the first place.

    I'm glad you have experienced healing from TM's crap, but please don't trivialize and diminish the healing process for those of us who aren't as fortunate as you.

  11. You are right, Jeff the Best and most healthy way of dealing with your hurt is to stop thinking about it. Oh wai, that is exactly what I did with regards to my mom's death….. And here I am 7 years later, struggling with complicated grief.

  12. Jeff – Hmm. If you've really "moved on" so completely, then why are you commenting here? What made you look up Teen Mania on the internet, if you're not even thinking about it? Why aren't you spending all your time commenting on sites for those "other things" you're focusing on now? I think there's more to your story than you're telling us.

    Most people on here care about the crap that's going on the present. For instance, the videos above are from this month, in case you missed that. Doesn't it sadden you to see that TM is still hurting people the same way you were hurt 10 years ago? Why don't you want to comfort the hurting and confront the abusers?

    Some people overcome their hurt by helping other people who are being hurt the same way they were, choosing to invest their experience of healing in the current generation, rather than insulting the wounded.

  13. Jeff-It's super important to spend time in recovery if someone has been abused. There is no set timeframe, each person spends a different amount of time healing. Also, there are many on here who are not "living in the past" they just want to help prevent future interns from being hurt and wounded and want to promote real true life giving change at Teen Mania. You should go to the frequent objections tab and educate yourself on the purpose of this blog before you throw out sweeping assumptions like you did. I am sure you didn't mean to sound judgmental, but your comments seem a little harsh and accidentally ignorant.

  14. Individuals who are sleep deprived have difficulty regulating their emotions.

  15. "Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger (judge);for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God." As I was reading the thread of posts here tonight, I felt saddened. I wondered if the righteousness of God was a fruit of the conversation thread. I felt saddened that some were so quick to judge the dad in the video and his relationship with his daughter – as if you really knew what was in his heart and mind. Saddened by the judgment that when he made the decision as an adult to push his physical limits, that he was foolish or manipulated to do so. Was the method necessary? Perhaps not, but maybe for him that was the thing he chose to move closer in his relationship with his daughter by sharing the experience together. The fruit of that sacrifice made a difference for both of them. That didn't really have much to do with TM, but what he wanted to do with and for his daughter. As a parent, I can understand that.

    And last, I respect your right to your opinions, but I do wonder about the motivation for some of the commentary and the lack of grace for those who are made of flesh, like us. Perhaps at some point, those who have been hurt will cease to hold a debt against TM (the organization), or individuals they feel are responsible for their pain. May you release them from the debt and find freedom in the grace of God. Then the righteousness and love of God will be on display for all to see. Thanks for the chance to comment.

  16. I've been thinking about this blog a lot, how to "fight" for what I see as right. I even thought about starting an opposing blog to counter what RA says and give the other side of the story.

    But what this blog basically boils down to is a handful of people who need legitimate counsel from licensed professionals. I'm not saying that to knock them. The individuals who identify with this blog have legitimate hurts and legitimate wounds.

    I look at these individuals and consider them to be a sprung spring. Once a spring has sprung, it's never quite right again. Lucky for those of us who believe in Jesus is that we have a medic who CAN fix us and make us whole.

    In the end, that's what we really all need, whether we hate TM or not. We need a touch from the Healer.

    RA, Shanon, Nunquam, Julie, and other regulars, I'm sorry that you have been hurt so deeply. Some of you even to the point of losing your religion and turning your back on what you thought you believed.

    I'm glad that y'all have a place to vent and get things off your chest, but remember, you don't need to save these kids at TM. That's too much of a burden for any of you to bear. They'll be just fine. I challenge you all to focus on yourselves.

    There's a story about this guy who got shot by an arrow from across the lake. He, rightfully so, was very angry. He swore that he'd find out who did it and kill him.

    He never found the guy and he eventually died of old age, having spent his whole life looking for him. He wasted his life.

    I'm not saying that any of you, or RA, are wasting your life by using this blog. I don't know any of you well enough to make that assumption.

    I just want you to think about what you're spending your time on. Some of what you're doing is similar to tossing your pearls before swine. It's just useless. We are ALL guilty of that at times in our lives.

    Now I'm going to sign off. I've seen how you all tear apart other posts and twist them to make the person who wrote them look like an idiot. If that's what you choose to do with my post, then so be it. I won't respond if you do. If you want to converse like respectable humans, then I'll come back and respond.

  17. Anonymous,

    You said, "But what this blog basically boils down to is a handful of people who need legitimate counsel from licensed professionals."

    You are quite mistaken about the number of devastated alumni.

    Like any blog on the internet, only a small percentage of readers actually comment regularly. It would be ignorant to assume that those are the only people reading the blog or being helped by it. I've gotten emails from over 200 alumni that have been helped by the blog. And again, only a small percentage of people actually take the time to write in…

    And don't forget the many (hundreds?) of alumni that have entirely left the faith and refuse to associate with anything Teen Mania. They don't even know the blog exists.

    To your point about wasting our lives…there is certainly a principle of truth in that, but do you write that because you are really concerned with our lives? Or because you want us to shut up about Teen Mania?

    My guess would be the latter.

  18. I may be wrong about how many people are devastated. On any issue, anywhere, internet or not, there's always ever only a small percentage of people who actually speak up. But, we'll never know exactly how many are hurt.

    I'm concerned for you guys and I'm concerned for your well being. I don't want you to shut up about Teen Mania, that's why I decided that an opposing blog wouldn't be appropriate. It's not what you, TM, or myself need.

    You, and people of your persuasion need validation. You'll never get it from Teen Mania. An organisation can't give it to you. Just as well as you'll never get an apology or response from TM. TM is not a person. It has no flesh and no blood. Perhaps that's part of the reason you're so unsettled.

    I wish I could tell you who I am and what my experiences are with TM. I can't and won't. I will tell you that I do not work for them and I am not a financial supporter or a parent. I am alumni of HA, GE, and ATF. I've also been around almost as long as you, RA. We have many friends in common.

    The dis-unity (if that's a word) breaks my heart. You are a Christian, no doubt. The men and women that drive TM are Christians as well. I know them very well and have for years. I can read through the hurt and pain and bitterness on this blog to see that you are as well, even though I don't know you personally.

    An organisation the size of TM would not exist if God did not want it to. You can not deny the fruit that is coming out of what they do. I've been to the altar calls, I've heard testimonies of good things. I've seen and known people that spend their lives on the mission fields in foreign countries and right here in the US after they finish their time with TM. You can not deny it.

    RA, I don't know exactly what to tell you to do. All I know is that what you're doing isn't totally right. You think it is, bless your heart, I know you think it's right. That's why you do it.

    I know that in the past you've tried to come along side of TM and help amicably, and were ignored or turned down. That, rightfully so, made you angry. Now, everything you see about TM is through that biased lens of anger. I've seen you take little things and twist them around. But, to reinforce what I said earlier, you do it because you think it's right.

    But, because you reacted in anger and misconstrued things, you've lost trust by almost everybody that is pro-TM. You've not proven to them that you have everybody's best interests at heart. The only good thing that you've proven to pro-TM'ers is that you care about the hurt interns. There's more to the relationship than that though.

    I could go through your blog and give you examples of things you've misconstrued. Events that I've witnessed in person. But other people have done that and you've made fools out of them, or simply refused to believe that you were wrong. I'm not interested in arguing.

    I'm interested in trying to help us all further the Kingdom together, and not hold one another back.

    There has to be a more productive way for you to accomplish your goal. A way that's in the light so to speak. Where people don't feel like they have to remain anonymous. People such as myself could speak and let the world know who we are. But with the tone of this blog I just can't.

    Again, I'm signing off. I invite your response and I know that you'll have criticism for me, I expect it. However, make me look like a fool and I will no longer engage.

  19. Anon-
    Some of us have gotten responses from figureheads of TM. Some of us tried to change the problems we found there through adult discussion only to discover after the fact that not only did the leadership of Teen Mania not care about the people they hurt they thought that those who they hurt should be ruined and lied about publicly. I would have been glad to walk away after my time of healing had I been "called" to do that, but I can't not when in a dorm down in Garden Valley there's a girl who's like me in many ways and dealing with those same struggles and being treated by leadership in the same manner. Not when by speaking I can keep that girl from running from FAITH in anything, not religion because religion is the problem, true FAITH is something that left so many of us who were bright and happy for rules and a version of Christ that broke us down. Yes there are some here who lost FAITH entirely and some could say that is sad, but make no mistake we lost FAITH due to legalized abusive forms of Christianity not because we talked to others with similar hurts on a blog. I am not anonymous never was anyone could ask for my name and get it at any time though I use a handle on here because of the high number of commentators on this blog with my first name. My name is Lisa I was hurt by Teen Mania, I love the heart that draws young people to the Honor Academy but hate what the leadership does to some of them! I would rather speak up for years and years in the hopes that a young person who could be wrecked would be spared the heartache I went through BY MYSELF thinking I was the only one!

  20. Sometimes, folks who are pro-TM seem to think the purpose of this website is to debate whether or not it was okay that we were hurt at Teen Mania. Or to debate whether or not our hurts are valid. Or to debate whether we should or should not voice a negative opinion of TM. That is not the point of this site. This site recognizes that what happened to the recovering interns was wrong and our hurts are valid. It's a place to talk about what we experienced and find healing by sharing our experiences with one another and seeing that we weren't "bad seeds" or lesser Christians. It's a place where many have realized for the first time that they are not alone.

    Sometimes, those who are pro-TM feel attacked here. When that happens, I wish they would take a moment and realize that is how a recovering alumnus feels EVERY TIME he or she tries to talk about his or her experience with alumni in a forum other than this site. This truly is the one place we are allowed to honestly share and be heard with compassion. If someone who says pro-TM things feels attacked by our responses, take a moment and think about whether you have made this community feel attacked with your comment. The pro-TM comments on this site are the SAME things over and over again. They are the same things we have all been hearing since we were at TM. It does get frustrating for us that our hearts, wounds, and experiences are continually dismissed by the pro-TM crowd. But if you don't like the responses here, you can go pretty much anywhere else and everyone will agree with your pro-TM thoughts. This is the one safe place we have. And so we are protective of it. And we are protective of the members of our community.

  21. Anon, I can't figure out if you are trying to be patronizing, passive agressive, prove a point, or you actually care. Maybe it seems like you are trying to pull the "let's sweep this under the rug" card.

    Nobody wants to have to stand up for what's right when it makes a "ministry" look like they are capable of doing wrong. It makes Christians look like we may actually deal with real life instead of it smelling like roses all of the time. It's driven into us to look like the model christians, model interns, model "light" talkers (which is just confrontation 101 at the HA). Those who love Jesus have been through tons of horrible things and they made it through. Alot of those times they had to speak out loud.

    I hope you are not saying, let's push this all under the rug. Most the leaders of the Bible dealt with problems head on instead of pretending the problem didn't exist. This blog wouldn't be such a hot seat if it wasn't hitting on some actual issues or if TM, others in the church, would've listened to the pain of the hurting. Instead, that fight was given a voice on this blog. Not many people at TM were interested until it was "put in the light," and given voice where somebody could hear it.

    Where would you suggest those who are healing from their experiences at TM to go? I don't think I'd come to someone who is patronizing, being passive agressive.

    When will Christians realize it's not about the point you are trying to make but the love that you could choose to give without even mentioning YOUR POINT.

  22. Nunquam Honorablus | September 26, 2011 at 2:51 pm | Reply

    Glenn- I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but:

    "As I was reading the thread of posts here tonight, I felt saddened. I wondered if the righteousness of God was a fruit of the conversation thread."

    That is basically Christianese for "shut the hell up you're wrong". A person can legitimately share their feelings and SOLID EVIDENCE about abuse, but OMPH- you weren't HOLY about it so shut up and take it.

    Which is funny, because I actually agree with what you have to say about the father and daughter! It just seems like you're calling this group on the carpet for judging them, while questioning this community's motives and heart.

    I just don't see why you have to dress everything up in a Christianese corset in order to say "abuse is abuse".

  23. Anonymous – Allow me to respond to a few specific comments:

    "You, and people of your persuasion need validation. You'll never get it from Teen Mania"

    That is absolutely right! And the main reason why this blog exists – I'm here to give validation to every hurt intern that was made to feel worthless and unacceptable. I've certainly never implied that anyone should seek this validation from TM, because I know they are never going to get it.

    "The dis-unity (if that's a word) breaks my heart"

    Well, its the abuse that breaks my heart. Abusers and their supporters can't complain about disunity when they are the ones that caused it in the first place.

    "An organisation the size of TM would not exist if God did not want it to."

    I'm not a Calvinist, so I don't believe this. There are plenty of large religous organizations that I doubt God wants to exist…but we've got free will.

    "You can not deny the fruit that is coming out of what they do."

    How about the verse "A little leaven goes through the whole lump?" Or, the TM metaphor – if you had just a little bit of poop in the brownies, would you still eat them?

    At this point, I'm not really concerned with winning the trust of pro-TMers – the fact that they care more about TM's reputation than the damage left in its wake means nothing I can say or do would ever get through to them.

    If you have a suggestion of a more productive way to accomplish the goals of this blog 1) healing for damaged interns 2) warnings for potential interns – then by all means, please share it. And please, if you feel that I've misrepresented something, please let me know. To the best of my knowledge, every fact I've presented is true and I'm willing to correct anything that isn't.

  24. Anonymous: I appreciate that your tone is, in general, more irenic and conciliatory than most of the comments from Pro-TM zealots (and indeed TM staff) that we've seen here. However, here are a few points you should consider:

    – "An organisation the size of TM would not exist if God did not want it to." That's very problematic, logically and theologically. For instance, Al Quaeda is a much bigger organization than TM is. Unless you're advocating a very hyper-calvinistic view, I think we'd have to agree that the size of a group is no indicator of divine sanction of everything the group does.

    – "You can not deny the fruit that is coming out of what they do." But, as this site demonstrates, part of their fruit is hundreds of people who are deeply burned out and disenchanted with TM's brand of Christianity. Can we deny this? If not, what is your suggestion of the best way to help these people? What changes could TM be making to improve this situation? Have they made those changes? (Note that some of the True Stories on this site are from as recently as 2010– See Hannah's, for instance.)

    – "Now, everything you see about TM is through that biased lens of anger." That's argumentum ad hominem. (I could just as easily turn it around and say that your comments are prejudiced by your evident desire to avoid facing the possibility that an organization you've invested a lot of time and money in is in fact a cult, because nobody likes to have been deceived. Neither view gets us anywhere.)

    Take a third option: I'm a frequent commenter on this site but I've never been personally hurt by HA. I'm here because (1) I am convinced that HA is, whatever their strengths, largely preaching a false gospel contrary to Christ, and (2) I believe that part of being a follower of Christ is to rebuke Pharisaical religiosity and comfort the afflicted. And (2a), I care about the people here. (If you were going to ask, yes, I've tried to communicate via email with the leaders at TM. No, they have flatly refused to have a constructive dialogue with me.) There are several others like me as well; for instance, see this evaluation by independent cult experts. It's not all "bitter alumni" who take this position. I'm not an alumnus, and I'm not bitter toward anybody let alone strangers, and I think Teen Mania is a cult.

    – "…you don't need to save these kids at TM. That's too much of a burden for any of you to bear." Would you care to rephrase that in a way that doesn't sound so, frankly, callous? Why on earth should we not be concerned if kids are at risk and need saving? If not us, who?

  25. Future Cult Leader | September 26, 2011 at 4:46 pm | Reply

    I'd rather masturbate with sandpaper then listen to TMM "anonymous sympathizers come on here and berate the market for which this blog exists. Also would it kill you to actually invent a pseudonym – plain old anonymous is so boring. You could pick anything – RighteousJudge33 or ChristianPoliceOfficer1982 – or it could just be Apple or KCrew.

    Since my TMM Exodus the biggest red flag ever is that TMM has a tenant that no one would portray or allow the organization to be portrayed in a negative light. This wasn't a suggestion or a footnote on the last page of the saber – it was a frecking tenant of the entire organization. Thought control is CULT red flag number one.

    Oh and thankfully to much healing I'm finally able to say and write the "M" word. Yippee!

  26. Glenn,
    Thank you for your thoughts; I can definitely see the point you are making and I think it is a valid one. That girl's father seemed very sincere, and I believe that he chose to participate in PEARL with good intentions. I think that those of us who are commenting would do well to keep this in mind, and confine our criticism to the practices of the organization utilizing these harmful and ineffective methods. There is absolutely no justification for tearing this guy apart, or for speculating about his relationship with his daughter. By the way, I really appreciate the respect you've shown to those of us in the RA community, despite our disagreements. I value your view-point and welcome your thoughts.

    Anonymous,
    As I was reading your first post, my thought process went something like this: "I think this person has definitely misunderstood what this community is all about, and because of that they are misrepresenting us pretty badly. However, they seem very compassionate and respectful, and I think they'd really be open to dialogue. Maybe some of us here could help clear up some misunderstandings. They may not change their minds about anything, but at least they'll understand where we're coming from. And maybe they'll have some helpful insight as well; maybe we could learn from one another…." and then, I got to THIS part: "Now I'm going to sign off. I've seen how you all tear apart other posts and twist them to make the person who wrote them look like an idiot. If that's what you choose to do with my post, then so be it. I won't respond if you do. If you want to converse like respectable humans, then I'll come back and respond."
    –how can we dialogue, or believe any of your pretense at compassion and empathy, if, at the end, you're going to dismiss us on the assumption that we're all assholes that are incapable of having a civil discussion? Did you say that to deliberately put us on the defensive? Not to mention that that statement is just plain wrong. I've been here for a long time, and pro-TM commentors who engage with us respectfully will generally be treated respectfully in return. (Though there are a few exceptions, they represent themselves as individuals, not the group as a whole.) If you don't want us to judge you based on a small percentage of hateful, militant pro-TMers, then PLEASE don't make sweeping judgments about us based on a few undiscerning commentors. And maybe think twice about such passive-aggressive statements; they're completely unproductive. THIS: "I invite your response and I know that you'll have criticism for me, I expect it." is really unnecessary. We're not some rabid gang of wolves just chomping at the bit, waiting for a chance to attack you. We're just a group of people who are concerned about some things happening at the HA, and we want to address those concerns. That having been said, I appreciate your contribution to this dialogue. I think it's an important conversation to have and I would invite you to keep up your end if you want to.

    hearts and julie,
    Very well said, I agree absolutely.

  27. This is Anon. I'll create a pseudonym later tonight. I will also read your comments more thoroughly later this evening and respond. I appreciate all of you engaging with me.

  28. @Glen. Just wanted to say that this isn't really a 'christian' site. So trying to hold people to what you think the the bible is saying doesn't really work here.
    Sorry you're burdened when you run into people who do not believe and think just as you do and you are saddened by your judgement of others… it's a sucky way to live life and I feel sorry FOR you.

  29. Recovering Alumni isn't christian?

  30. I don't think so Bro… I guess I can't speak for the group.

  31. Anonymous – So you are going to assume I'm not a Christian based on one commenter…have you even read what I've written?? Ridiciulous.

    For the record, I think what Shiloh is getting at is that not everyone in this community is a Christian – nor are they required to be in order to be listened to, validated and loved.

  32. Anon that is the creepest thing I've seen in a long time. I'm gonna assume you are a creeper who thinks they know R.A.because they've read some post's she's put on a blog. you probably imagine sending creeper emails to her at night before you go to sleep. Probably anonymous ones.

  33. (The above refers to a comment I just deleted)

  34. I meant the site isn't 'christian' as in it doesn't (at least from what I've seen) use the bible as a judgement against it's followers. I don't see this site as being 'christian' because if you post something opposing the bible you will not be turned away or even confronted. depending on maturity you probably wont be judged. in connection to what Glen was sayiing, I was trying to communicate that, though he/she may want everyone to bend to his idea of 'Christiantiy' it wasn't going to happen because people aren't expected/required to follow the bible.
    I thought it was quite obvious this place shines the love of God and didn't realize that could be misunderstood.

  35. Hey RA, why don't you go creep on the Teen Mania campus again? Ohhh shoot.. That's right.. You're not allowed there anymore 🙂

  36. Restriction on people's free access to information is, as is well known, one of the classic identifying markers of a cult.

  37. Anon at 11:19pm-Interesting that someone is BANNED from the ministry if they don't agree with them. Can you not see how damaging and ridiculous that is? What if the church banned people who didn't agree with their views? Would it be okay if the local church banned an atheist? So if someone doesn't play nice it's okay to ban them? And you think this is funny? What a cruel comment. Maybe try to think about what you said and ask yourself if that is how Jesus would treat RA. My guess is no.

  38. There's been a few different Anon's commenting on here. I'm the one who wants us all to be able to further the kingdom together, and the one who said I'd like to engage.

    I apologize if my comment about "making me look like a fool and twisting my words" put you off. I can see how it would have. There is one particular instance that comes to mind, when a supporter of TM said "shit" or something like that and the replies to her post mentioned her being a terrible mother and her children being able to google her name and see how terrible of a person she was. I for one don't think that word was appropriate in this context, especially not from someone trying to support TM. However, from the RA side telling her she was a terrible mom and her children would find out twenty years from now by googling her name wasn't respectful and made her look like a fool.

    RA, in my mind you ARE a Chrstian. I've said that clearly I think.

    However, I think this will be my last post. I don't feel the need to defend TM, nor do I feel the duty. I love them, but it's not my place.

    Some of you have picked up on my concern for you as individuals and as people. That is correct. You have already doubted my genuineness, and I understand why.

    I would love to help all of you come to further healing, but this blog isn't the right venue for me.

    This blog does offer some validation which is good, RA. It let's people know they're not alone.

    If I could offer one little suggestion though, that would be to develop a firm "Why TM is wrong" with your proof and leave it at that. You already have that, but develop it and make it a part of the blog, not the feature.

    The feature of your blog should consist of helping people overcome. Again, you have some of this material already.

    By continuing to expose TM, you (in my book, at least) are beating a dead horse. We got it. TM has made mistakes. I am a big supporter of TM, but I have also been hurt deeply. We all know that they aren't perfect. (that's not an excuse for them, either)

    Now, where can I find help? (I being thadeus or phoebe intern).

    THAT should be what your ongoing posts are about.

    I will take emails though at PhoebeAndThad @ Gmail dot com

  39. @Nunquam Honorablus – I'm truly sorry that what I said offended you and others. When I commented on wondering "if the righteousness of God was the fruit of the conversation thread", it was truly just asking the question of some of the comments for those who follow Jesus. I didn't see criticizing the father and his daughter as something that would please Jesus or move others forward toward healing. That's not critiquing what you saw in the PEARL this time around, or discussing the things that were difficult for those who participated in the past. (Yes, I didn't stop to think that some on the blog aren't people of faith and that would come across as 'religious' or 'holier than thou' – which (Shiloh) pointed out for me.) I would hope I would have the freedom to write from a Christian perspective, Shiloh, and have your understanding that you & some others would just decide not to read or agree to disagree with my comments.

    What I was trying to do was engage some of those who write to think through some questions at a personal level as they write. "Would I say these things to the person I'm talking about if we were speaking in person?" "Is the thread of my conversation pleasing to God?" (just thinking about principles in scripture for how we engage others – no rules here) "Is it taking people to a better place in the process of healing?" "Are we asking good questions that will help others find some of the healing they want to experience?" I don't think I'm legislating a "brand" of Christian faith with questions like these, just asking others to consider for themselves as they dialogue. I ask students (I'm a technology coordinator for a high school district) to do that whenever we're writing online.

    Nunquam H., you've read me wrong in thinking that I want y'all to "shut the hell up, you're wrong" (using your words) and that you should "just take it" (referring to the pain of your experience). I've been wounded in the past while in Christian ministry and also just from others in general. The pain was real. I believe yours is, too. Not everything my two daughters was great while at TM and I can say the leadership didn't handle certain situations very well. Like some of you here, it's taken time to recognize how those situations could've been handled differently.

    And I don't feel better than you…I don't have contempt for people here…on the contrary, I feel a strong sense of compassion. In my first 10 years working, I worked as a therapist (with both those abused and abusers). And I wasn't trying to 'brand' people in the process, but help take them through the process of healing and growth. It's important to share your experiences with others. It's important to have the chance to talk about it, feel heard and understood, get some perspective on it, find freedom and forgiveness, etc. I hope that Christian or not, your desire is to find healing, freedom from the past, insight for the future, forgiveness, maybe even influence some changes in TM's methods. Just staying stuck in anger mode is a tough place to be…I've been there, and I've worked with people who have.

    Last, I will say that I'm asking lots more questions about TM than I did in the past as a result of reading the blog, and I think that is one thing y'all have done to benefit me and my family. It's reminded me to be trusting, but be vigilant. It's reminded me, too, to work to listen hard to people and be careful of my responses 🙂 Thanks for that 🙂

  40. A response from Kayla's dad:
    Yes, I am the dad who did the Pearl with my daughter shown on the video. I just want to fill in a few gaps for those of you who seem interested in our journey.
    1st, I am doing great physically, and actually feel 10-15 yrs younger than before I went! I have been running faithfully and feel great. I did experience a lot of lower back pain while on the Pearl, but the staff were very helpful. I have had back issues since playing football 25 yrs ago, and I know my back. I am not stupid or brainwashed. In football you learn the difference between pain and injury. I was in pain, but not seriously injured. Once I got home, I saw my chiropractor who confirmed that my lower back was in need of a a few adjustments and rest, but no injuries. Thanks for your concern. I do want to make it clear that several times the staff showed concern for me, & that the medical staff were very helpful.

    2nd, I think it is important to remember that this is a voluntary event. I volunteered. It's a game designed to challenge you physically and emotionally in ways that we are rarely challenged. I expected to be pushed. I would have been disappointed if it had just been a camp out or something. While it was very intense, military boot camp and even high school football camps are similar. I have a friend whose son is at West Point, and when I described it to him he said it sounds a lot like their boot camp. This is not for everyone, but that doesn't make it wrong. This was not forced on anyone. I chose to do this, as did every other person who was involved. You could ring out at any point for any number of reasons without any shame. If any of my other 5 kids decide to do HA, I will probably do this again, as I would personally like to finish.

    3rd, There were some comments about what seemed to be two different stories regarding my relationship with my daughter. I have been very close to Kayla her whole life. Mission trips together, coaching her sports teams, driving her to drama practice, long talks about life, family nights with the rest of our family, and a never ending understanding that we genuinely love, respect, and value each other are all part of our relationship. In Kayla's video she talked about a time that was tough for us. She is referring to her junior year in high school. During that time I was uncomfortable with some choices she was making, and I talked to her about it. Then I imposed some standards that she didn't like or understand at the time. That was tough for me because I have always had such a high level of respect for her, but I was convinced that this was the most loving thing I could do as a father. She wasn't happy, but she submitted to my request. This situation certainly caused our relationship to be a little "less warm" for a few months because she disagreed with my standards and told me so. But, that was as bad as it got. She went of a GE mission trip that summer and came back telling me how she knew that I made the right call during her junior year. She had a great senior year, and decided to do HA. On the video she is simply referring to the fact that this event has been so good for our relationship, and I couldn't agree more! I am so glad I took the vacation time to come do this challenge with her. I am so proud of her!
    4th, I have never done HA, so I cannot speak to all the other issues raised on this website, but TM is a respected ministry with a proven track record. It's not for everyone, but then neither is world missions or ministry for that matter. These things take a commitment level that is different than a normal American lifestyle. It's a calling that involves sacrifice. HA is simply trying to create an environment for young people to be prepared to the challenges faced by ministry leaders and missionaries.

    That's my take on HA and the Pearl.
    Kayla's Dad

    "No reserves. No retreats. No regrets"
    — William Borden

  41. Kayla's dad – If only you had stopped before that last paragraph, I'd be able to listen to your comments better. But its hard for me to take your comments seriously – especially the parts about not being brainwashed – when you directly imply that a failure to attend the HA or be a missionary is a failure to sacrifice. That is arrogant and unhelpful.

    You are right about one thing, Teen Mania does have a proven track record – its a record of leaving hundreds of broken people in its wake.

  42. "It's not for everyone, but then neither is world missions or ministry for that matter."

    Ministry isn't for everyone? I think you've used the wrong term because anyone who is a "christian" I think would be called to some form of ministry – even if its just with your co-workers or friends.

    Thats awesome that you took vacation time to do it and that your relationship is better for it. Just remember not everyone has that kind of experience.

  43. Sounds like Kayla's Dad and Emmie disagree on who exactly is called to World Missions.

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