Teen Mania’s Christianity: Radical or Obnoxious?

As we discussed last time, Teen Mania heavily promotes an us vs. them mentality. Instead of fostering love, grace and compassion, followers of this message wrongfully believe that being obnoxious = being a good Christian.

Case in point, this story held up by Ron Luce as a model of Christian living at last weekend’s Battlecry:


A member of the youth group went into a Victoria Secret store and confronted the manager. “Don’t you care about our generation?” he asked. “How can you put that picture in the window? You’re messing up my image of a woman!”

The manager kicked that person out of the store and another person from the youth group would go in and complain. This went on 31 times with each of the members going into the store, requesting the manager and complaining. Finally, all 31 people went in at the same time and complained in front of all the customers. The store grew silent as the customers and youth group watched the store manager fearfully take down the photos one by one.“You guys are good at ruffling people’s feathers,” said Luce, whose youth organization is one of the nation’s largest. “So instead of ruffling your parents why don’t you use it for God?” he asked, drawing laughter from the audience.


1) Exactly how did this youth group’s actions bring anyone closer to Jesus?

2) Ron said that the “youth group watched the store manager fearfully take down the photos one by one.” Since when is fear and intimidation a godly tactic for conversion??

If you want to “ruffle feathers for God,” take your cues from the life of Jesus. The only people whose feathers he ruffled were the respected religious leaders of his day…He loved on the sinners, the outcasts, etc. He didn’t walk into their stores and demand they change their way of doing business.

Sheesh. How much longer is crap like this going to be celebrated as the Christian message? I just don’t get it.

468 Comments on "Teen Mania’s Christianity: Radical or Obnoxious?"

  1. word.

  2. Sounds like this youth group just finished studying The Crusades.

    While I don't agree with those actions, it takes a set of brass balls to do something like that. *facepalm*

  3. Ugh so all those people who went in there to get a bra panties or workout cloths (or heck maybe a corset for under their wedding dress but are not Christians or not "on fire" saw Christians trying to be bully a store that has a set of corporate standards in how they sell their product. These people see Christians not being loving or trying to talk to the world about how GOD sees them but tearing others down for not complying with their personal standard. So frustrating. Very not Christian.

  4. This makes it quite strikingly clear that to Luce, "following God" does not mean presenting the Gospel to people but changing cultural norms, by force and intimidation if necessary. That's a very common (and entirely valid) criticism of the Battlecry campaign in general.

    It's not Christianity. It has nothing to do with Christianity. And Luce is making not just Christians but all the unfortunate targets of their "witnessing" think it does.

    I'm surprised the store didn't have better security, because group intimidation on private property would be a splendid reason to call the cops. Of course, knowing what we know about the veracity of Ron Luce's illustrations….

    Also, it looks like his idea of "effective" evangelism hasn't changed much since his book RIOT Manual. (Which anyone thinking he's marginally sane should read for an alternate perspective.)

    "Another Bathroom Revival tactic is putting tracts in the toilet paper dispenser. If you have the roll-up kind, unroll it and put the tracts in one at a time as you roll it back up. As the paper is unrolled, the tracts will fall out one at a time."

  5. @ Eric
    That toilet paper roll thing is disgustingly unsanitary. If ANYTHING fell out of my toilet paper roll in a public restroom I would be informing the manager they needed to change their rolls. And if I were a non-Christian, I would be especially mad that some Christian thought it was ok to put their dirty hands all over the stuff I use on a very private area.

    Also, this is just a personal pet peeve of mine, and I'm sure they've worked in some circumstances, but tracts are so annoying to me. They seem utterly ineffective as an evangelistic tool.

  6. recovering alumni…just curious, do you not have anything else to do with your life?

  7. Hi Sarah – I've found that speaking truth and helping people find freedom is a valuable use of my time. (Certainly better than harassing Victoria's Secret managers as Ron suggests.) Thanks for asking!

  8. Sarah, you do realize that she just blogs, right? I mean, that doesn't take up THAT much time.

    (Not to belittle what you do, RA. I'm just saying that it's not like your whole life is spent digging up dirt on Ron Luce & Teen Mania.)

  9. Yes, its not nearly as time consuming as putting tracts in toilet paper dispensers. 😉

  10. Also, its not like its hard to find dirt on TM since there is SOOO much that they do wrong (both morally and legally)

    mouse

  11. Sarah,

    I have nothing better to do with my life. In fact, my life is consumed by helping others… those that have been hurt, abused, and neglected. I also help their families.

    I guess my time is not as valuable as yours, though. Perhaps I should spend it posting ridiculous questions that don't pertain to anything of topic?

  12. oh shut up shannon. you people sicken me. maybe you, shannon kish, should fuck off?

  13. i'm sure that will be deleted by RA, whom i know by name. Shannon- i don't know you, nor want to know you, and you're right, i only have 3 children to take care of every day, which is obviously more than you have. thanks.

  14. Um…anyone else see a case in point here?

  15. LOL!!!! I think Sarah answered the question posed in the title of this post!

  16. RA, please don't delete Sarah's post. I think it makes an excellent point.

  17. Looks like we're ruffling a few feathers ourselves. Ron should be proud!

  18. Yea however abusive her commentary is to Shannon it certainly does illustrate the problems nicely.

  19. Sarah's posts are almost as awesome as when Luce's daughter got in on some of the dialogue… and it sure got spicy! Fun stuff.

    As a mother myself… I have to warn you, Sarah that these things always come back to bite us later. The attitudes and behaviors that we think we hide from our children always come out one way or another. Even without screenshots involved.

  20. Nunquam Honorablus | May 21, 2011 at 12:16 am | Reply

    OH HEY I WANNA PLAY

    > condescending question meant to silence source of offense
    > to-the-point answer that catches questioner off-guard
    > additional input supporting said to-the-point answer
    > "wait I don't know how to respond to that uhhhh FUCK YOU yeah that'll show 'em"

    Most commenters such as yourself don't make it past step two, Sarah! I am impressed by your tenacity.

  21. enlightenmentisntsoscary | May 21, 2011 at 12:29 am | Reply

    Why the hell would the Victoria's Secret Manager take down the pictures?????? This is another made up Luce doosie! Uh, you see, Mr Luce. The manager would likely call security. Not wimper and bow to the whim of some teenagers. People BELIEVE this SHIT? WTF ever. Luce is an idiot.

  22. Wow, thanks Sarah for your wonderful Christian witness.

  23. Nunquam Honorablus | May 21, 2011 at 12:45 am | Reply

    To Sarah's credit she may not actually be a Christian! Not that that's really… uh, an excuse.

  24. Well, if she's not a Christian, I can't imagine why she would care what we say about Ron and TM.

  25. littlegraygirl | May 21, 2011 at 2:26 am | Reply

    Sarah,

    We, too, know Mica by name, so it isn't as if you're privy to special information that's being hidden from the rest of us.

    I am really really baffled by your vitriol. Disagreement is one thing–even STRONG disagreement–but I truly don't understand how you can possibly justify hateful, personal insults, regardless of your religious beliefs.

    I would laugh at this whole thing (it really is the perfect case-in-point), except for the part about your three kids. I very much hope that they don't grow up to treat other people the way that you do.

  26. Unfortunately your kids will have access to google (or whatever they call it in the future) and they will have a permanant record of how their mom treats those that she disagrees with. Sad indeed.

    mouse

  27. Sarah, you're probably done reading comments on here but if you're not I am wondering why this site upsets you so much? If you want to defend TMM and Ron Luce why don't you do that instead of personally attacking RA? I'd be much more interested in hearing your opinion and knowing why you believe in Ron Luce and TMM than reading angry, personal attacks that I automatically discount since they have no substance. Get involved in a debate, not mudslinging.

  28. The sort of ironic thing to me about this supposedly true story Luce tells is that many feminists and progressive types would agree–Victoria's Secret does, in fact, present an unrealistic, distorted image of women that probably does more harm than good to men and women. (and yet, I actually think they make the best bras around)

    Of course, it's not about collective good for society here; it's about silly people trying to harass other people in a dramatic scenario that proves nothing. It certainly doesn't prove anything about Christianity. If, in fact, the store manager did take down the posters from the windows, my guess is they immediately were put back up after the Army of God left the mall.

  29. people. people. i knew my comment would set off a bunch of people, and you know what? it did. it's seems awfully self-righteous people- as I very much try to avoid. You're right though, I didn't need to say "fuck off" to Ms. Kish. That was wrong. It's amazing, though, how many attacks back I got. Baffling, really. And I know there will be people that read this post and totally try to fine-comb this post and tear it apart. Really?? I probably shouldn't even get on this website, you're right. It just fires me up. I have to admit, I agreed with it-still do. Alot of it. I have been a part of Teen Mania since 1992, which is probably alot longer than most of you can say. I went on 7 mission trips, was an MA, a TL and also was a part of the internship in 1996 when TM moved from Tulsa to Garden Valley. Since you are all wondering if I am a "Christian" because I swear…who knows? What the hell is a Christian, in each your own definition?? Do you each make your own definition or something? I hate to say it, but most of you sound like the Christian's I can't stand to be around. No offense. ;o) Do I believe in God? Absolutely. Am I sick of people on here judging me, my motherhood, my entire life because I told someone to "fuck off?" Absolutely. I would hate to see what you people do to someone that flicks you off. Am i a "silly" person? (sharjem) Isn't it awfully "silly" of you to attack yourself if you just said I was attacking someone else? No need to comment, people. I am done with this website, as I chastise myself I never should've come on the first place. I know Ron, Dave, Heath personally. Are they perfect? Of course not. Do they need to have more grace with the interns? Absolutely. Are they human and need some grace themselves? Absolutely. I was very hurt by TM and alot of things that happened, believe me. But, by the Grace of God who takes me as I am, I have been able to move on. Do I think it's good you have a website that people can share their feelings, etc? Absolutely. But what I've seen lately is not people sharing feelings (myself included). It's completely tearing apart a ministry that is run by HUMAN people (did you hear that)and I talked to Heath last week and told him the things I thought didn't seem to be working, how things there can be looked at as abuse, etc. He took what I said and will it change? Who knows. Not my place anymore. But before you bash me, my motherhood, I can guarantee to most of you that I have probably been with TM much longer than all of you, will never go back, and hope you seriously heal and stop people like me- you people are the sort of Chrisitian's that made me leave the church. Not Teen Mania. Nuff said. I am done, I won't write anymore. You people that want to dissect this post and tear it apart, go ahead. Freedom of speech. Too bad I won't see it.
    RA- I apologize for upsetting everyone. Saying "fuck off" on here probably isn't your goal. ;o) I admire you, yet I don't agree with all your tactics. That said, it's a free country. Good luck.;o) Now I'd better go tend to those 3 children who are obviously going to be completely screwed up because of me. Lata.

  30. I've always found TM obnoxious. Just sayin'.

  31. littlegraygirl | May 21, 2011 at 5:36 pm | Reply

    Sarah,
    You probably won't see this, but just in case curiosity gets the better of you: if anyone here was questioning your Christianity, it had nothing to do with the words you used (who the hell cares if you say "fuck"?) and everything to do with how poorly you treated Shannon. I don't care if you cuss in front of your kids. I care that you don't teach them by example that it is okay to abuse others. You're right, though; everyone makes mistakes and we have no right to judge your parenting skills based on one interaction.

    My post wasn't meant to be attacking; I did feel a little defensive, however, because I happen to know that Shannon is a wonderful person who is doing a lot of good for people.

    I do want to thank you, however, for coming back and clarifying your position a little. You have every right to voice your disagreement as long as you keep it civil. 🙂

  32. "…if anyone here was questioning your Christianity, it had nothing to do with the words you used (who the hell cares if you say "fuck"?) and everything to do with how poorly you treated Shannon. I don't care if you cuss in front of your kids. I care that you don't teach them by example that it is okay to abuse others…"

    That.

    I'm sorry that we're the sort of people who caused you to leave the church. You're the sort of person who caused me to leave the church. That's a nasty finger-pointing game, however… and in the end we all have to take responsibility for our actions, convictions and beliefs.

    ps, You were an intern with my brother (and sister-in-the-law). Fascinating.

  33. Pretty sure sharjem was talking about the kids who went into Victoria's Secret, not you (feel free to clarify if I'm wrong, sharjem). You know, talking about the topic on hand?

    Also, coming from someone who claims to be tired of being judged, it's kind of hypocritical of you to keep spouting "you people," like we're all the same. In fact, Shannon would have a better argument saying the same thing of you, considering she's an atheist. We're not all the same here, we come from lots of different backgrounds and beliefs. And, as littlegraygirl said, no one cares if you say fuck, even in front of your kids. What we're sad about is the apparent ease with which you fall into blatant bullying and mudslinging when someone responds to your snarky question instead of keeping on topic with your debate. In other words, we'd be just as upset if you had said something nasty that didn't involve swearing at all.

    Yeah, most of us have talked to Ron, Dave, and Heath. And you know what? NOTHING CHANGED. No matter how many times they said it would. So, forgive us for thinking they're a bunch of liars who try to placate the masses while continuing their abuse. And yes, most of us would love to see TM shut down, because we don't want others to be abused the way we were, and TM sure isn't making the effort to change to make sure that doesn't happen.

  34. "Since you are all wondering if I am a "Christian" because I swear…who knows"

    Actually, nobody ever questioned your Christianity. Nunquam was just pointing out that Shannon shouldn't assume you were a Christian, since you hadn't said one way or the other.

  35. Hey Sarah
    "I talked to Heath last week and told him the things I thought didn't seem to be working, how things there can be looked at as abuse, etc. He took what I said and will it change? "

    Do you realize that Heath tells everyone 'things will change', 'things have changed'… it's just a comment/line to blow you off.

    Check out me FB page to see a whole dialogue I had with heath about the 'change' at TM.

    "you people are the sort of Chrisitian's that made me leave the church." Funny, the people who made me not want to leave the church used phrases like " you people sicken me" then go on to say how awesome they are because of how long they've been with TM.

    Well doesn't seem like you've changed muck since the internship. Pity

    To each their own though eh.

  36. "oh shut up shannon. you people sicken me. maybe you, shannon kish, should fuck off? i don't know you, nor want to know you, and you're right, i only have 3 children to take care of every day, which is obviously more than you have. thanks."

    Wow, where is all this bitterness, hostility & lack of grace coming from?

    "I have been a part of Teen Mania since 1992, which is probably alot longer than most of you can say. I went on 7 mission trips, was an MA, a TL and also was a part of the internship in 1996 when TM moved from Tulsa to Garden Valley."

    Oh, never mind. That explains it.

  37. Shannon Kish: I am sorry. Please forgive me for telling you to "fuck off." It was obviously a bad, day, I never should have gotten on here in the first place because I was already fired up. I don't know you, so it was very wrong of me to say that to you as I am sure you are a very nice person. So, please forgive me because it was wrong. RA- I think and have always thought you answer in the utmost respectful way possible. While I don't agree with this whole thing, it really isn't my choice and I hope it is helping some people. You asked where does my anger come from? Probably because I have extremely mixed up feelings about TM. Part of me wants to be loyal to the ministry I so loved for so long, yet part of me is PISSED off because of some of the experiences I had there. So…that being said who knows. To all the people that have commented nasty things to me and checked me out on facebook (because I know half of you have), I feel completely harrassed and am sorry I ever put anything on here in the first place. My bad. I have a tendency to press "enter" before I think. oops. And to the person that wrote "Well doesn't seem like you've changed muck since the internship. Pity" that was pure nasty. Just as when I told Shannon Kish to fuck off, that was also nasty. But I would appreciate this "Phoenix" person to back off and leave me alone. If you have the guts to say that, then tell me who you are and your name. Or maybe you don't want to be completely harrassed like I am being. To the person that said I was in the internship with "her brother and sister N law"…is there something else you wanted to say to me? Honestly.
    The only person I am sorry to is Shannon Kish and RA (Mica). I apologize.
    P.s. I am not afraid to say my real name, but please don't go stalking me on Facebook. That is crossing many boundaries I am not comfortable with. Thank you.

    Sarah Kent

  38. Sarah – Pure nasty? Uh, no. Nasty is telling some one you don't know to fuck off. You can go a head and blame it on a bad day or TM issues or what ever else, but the fact is you were pretty rude for no reason. I hope you apology is sincere. Shannon didn't deserve that.

    Why do you assume I'm 'stalking' you on facebook? I don't make it a habit of goggling or searching people out on facebook. And if you really want to technical about it, I linked MY fb acct to my post in invited YOU to look at my notes regarding a convo I had with Heath.

    It's interesting that your crying foul when you threw the first punchs at Mica, Shannon and the RA community as a whole. If you are being harassed on FB or otherwise, that's a bummer and I'm sorry to hear it. Feel free to message me on FB if you'd like to talk about it.

    PS – I was there in 97, and know you too.

  39. Sarah, I'm very sorry you felt so attacked. I think emotions run high in the comments since so many of us felt emotionally exploited by TMM. It's hard to have understanding when someone defends a group you feel wronged by. However, I'm sure for you it's hard to understand a bunch of people attacking a group you feel loyal to. I hope that my comment didn't add to your feelings of being under attack. It is really hard to find yourself confused about something you loved so passionately. I sincerely hope you find someone or some place that will be a safe space for you to process your feelings towards TMM. I hope you find peace. My name links to my blog if you ever need/want a friend. Blessings.

  40. Just to clarify, yes, I was talking about the situation presented by RA in this post. I can't see how that could be misconstrued.

    And, to Sarah, I would simply say: mixed up feelings and anger are pretty par for the course for those involved with these (or similar) ministries. Lasing out is actually pretty understandable. It just doesn't make for good debate/conversation. I pray God will give you wisdom and discernment as you think through your experiences.

  41. To SZB, and Sharjem, thank you both. You are both very respectful in your comments I thank you. Phoenix- If you want to stand behind your words, then tell me your name. It seems rather cowardly to not say your real name. Interesting to know you we're also in my class and it's also interesting to know you can be so judgemental and nasty, yet I tell someone to "f-off" and apologize, yet every day you attack TM and myself and yet you cannot be man enough to apologize for attacking, even if it isn't F-u. Which by the way, wasn't to you and I already told Shannon sorry, she can take it or leave it I hope she realizes it is sincere.
    Phoenix. I think I know who you are, and you are a coward for not saying your name.
    The greatest thing about TM is that I came out with some wonderful, loyal and best friends who I still am in touch with everyday. Can't be friends with everyone, though, eh?

    Have a good day to the rest of you. ;o)

  42. This whole mess is why I don't go to church…things aren't about Jesus anymore, they are about tearing people down just because they have some some emotional baggage of their own because it makes you feel better… people like to secretly laugh and point and scream "sinner!!" from the top of their gossipy lungs. If that's what it takes so you can have a purpose in your life then that's really sad. (Sara this is not pointed at you…but the actual post by RA)

    If have been in crisis situations at TM, and I have been in crisis situations here and now. I too know Dave and Heath, and I know RA. Guess who was there to be supportive and pray and be there for me to vent to…it wasn't my friends from TM….just saying

    Another thing. RA may tear apart the ministry so that people can see the flaws. A lot of us graduate and think that ohhh man, there must be something wrong with me to think that TM isn't perfect. This blog helps remove blinders that we often place over our eyes and our hearts. Is the ministry flawed, yes. The thing is, you can only go so far off track before you completely leave Jesus behind and take on your own agenda.

    At TM, the gospel isn't enough, they are attempting to ride the coat tails of Keith Green…but leaving the grace and forgiveness behind.

  43. Sarah – First I think your misunderstanding me. I am not attacking you. If you feel I am, I am sorry. Its not my intention to attack you in any way.

    I do need you to help me understand something though. Why do you think I'm harassing you on facebook? You said " But I would appreciate this "Phoenix" person to back off and leave me alone. If you have the guts to say that, then tell me who you are and your name. Or maybe you don't want to be completely harrassed like I am being."

    At no time have I ever harassed you or anyone else on facebook. In fact, I said you could contact me on facebook to we could clear up any misunderstanding. How is that cowardly?

    You also said "The greatest thing about TM is that I came out with some wonderful, loyal and best friends who I still am in touch with everyday." Sarah you can also find those kinds of friends here with in the RA community if your open to it. And please understand when I said " hope you apology is sincere. Shannon didn't deserve that." it wasn't ment to judge your heart or intention (though I can see why you might have felt it was). It was because Shannon and Mica are both one of MY dear friends and I will loyally defend them when someone attacks them.

    Again you are welcome to contact me on facebook if you'd like.

  44. littlegraygirl | May 23, 2011 at 4:17 pm | Reply

    Sarah,

    Wow. I had no idea people were harassing you on facebook.

    Very uncool.

    It was big of you to come and apologize. I know it wasn't directed toward me, so it doesn't really matter what I think, but for the record, it seemed sincere to me. People here have made a pretty good point: it is normal and understandable when a person is feeling conflicted about something to lash out in anger.

    Please feel free to stick around and contribute to this blog, if you'd like. Most people around here are pretty forgiving and accepting; we have to be, because we've all had bad days and have said things we wish we could take back. We've all gone through that stage of the reckoning process.

  45. Sarah, since you said that you knew me, your name sounded familiar to me and we have several mutual facebook friends, I sent you an fb message that said:

    Hi Sarah, I don't normally do this and I'm not looking for a fight or trying to convert you to my way of thinking, but I just really want to try to understand where you are coming from. What has made you so angry? I genuinely want to understand.

    Is that what you consider harassment?

  46. Mica- no, that's not the comment I considered harassment. ;o) But thank you for asking. (sincerely).

    Sarah Kent

  47. gracemakesfree | May 23, 2011 at 7:39 pm | Reply

    Does anyone really think that this happened?

    Specifically, Sarah … I know who you are – you are a smart woman and you've been out of the bubble long enough to see what it's really like out there. There is no way that this happened – like, seriously – no way! I'm not angry, or anything, I just think it's blatantly obvious.

    Not trying to be condescending, but I'm pretty sure that the Victoria's Secret corporate, managerial handbook doesn't say to submit to belligerent customer's demands, when it comes to the decor.

  48. Gracemakesfree – Good point, as someone mentioned above, the more likely story is that security was called and ushered the youth group out of the mall.

    Sarah – You said you were angry: "Probably because I have extremely mixed up feelings about TM. Part of me wants to be loyal to the ministry I so loved for so long, yet part of me is PISSED off because of some of the experiences I had there."

    That is a pretty common feeling amongst alumni. There is nothing wrong with feeling and expressing that anger…let's just try to do it appropriately (which would involve directing your anger to the people who hurt you, not towards other recovering alumni).

    I'm not sure what happened to make you feel "completely harassed" but I don't think its appropriate to accuse "half the people" here of stalking your facebook profile (unless you have some sort of proof). If someone sent you a nasty comment, it would be better to take it up with that individual person, instead of making it sound like the entire community has ganged up on you.

    TM brings up strong emotions in all of us…which is a strong sign that we all have things we still need to deal with.

  49. Ron Luce has been telling that Victoria's Secret story for years now. There were also a number of similar incidents involving Spencer's Gifts in Florida and Arizona that actually were covered by at least one local TV station's news, and one of the non-teenagers in their early 20's involved with one of those stunts was featured at a previous BattleCry.

    As for this Sarah Kent character, what she's doing here is perfectly in line with what Luce and other like-minded fundagelicals do… they'd much rather live on a burned-out cinder with people warring over bullshit like what body parts are visible in photographs and videos than actually accomplish something productive for somebody somewhere. Then they go around and complain that their critics have no life.

  50. Excuse me Mike Doughney? You don't know me from Adam. Do not label me or put me in a box. In fact, please refrain from being rude at this point, and move on. "this Sarah Kent character?" Rude, condescending and ridiculous. Please move on.

  51. And RA…i agree with you on TM bringing out some intense emotions. To be perfectly honest, I am actually shocked at myself, as it has been over 12 years since I have been a part of Teen Mania and I haven't even really thought about it until I started looking at your website (well, my girlfriends that I still have from the internship we talk #@!# about TM from time to time) and I started realizing how absolutely angry I am at things that happened at Teen Mania. I thought I was over alot of what happened, apparently not. Goodness.

  52. Sarah Kent said…
    And RA…i agree with you on TM bringing out some intense emotions. To be perfectly honest, I am actually shocked at myself, as it has been over 12 years since I have been a part of Teen Mania and I haven't even really thought about it until I started looking at your website (well, my girlfriends that I still have from the internship we talk #@!# about TM from time to time) and I started realizing how absolutely angry I am at things that happened at Teen Mania. I thought I was over alot of what happened, apparently not. Goodness.

    I can honestly say I think we've all been there Sarah. As you pointed out earlier we've all loved TM at one point, when you start to realize its not all it was cracked up to be…it's shocking.
    I think if you stick around it might ease some of the anger/frustration. I hope you do stick around.

  53. littlegraygirl | May 24, 2011 at 6:31 pm | Reply

    Sarah,

    I wonder if you would consider sending in your story. I had thought I was "over" it all, too, but as I continued to follow this blog, I began to see just how negatively my life had been affected by TM and how much of that crap still impacted me today. Ironically enough, it helped me to sort through that stuff so that I am finally able embrace all of the GOOD things about my time with TM. I don't think about TM all that much anymore, but when I do, the cognitive dissonance is gone. I feel less confused because I am able to see the good from the bad.

    It was incredibly cathartic to write my own story (see: Jamie's Story), and to read the encouraging responses of others who could relate to everything I'd experienced. I can't tell you how much it helped–that's the reason I'm suggesting you consider it. You can use a pseudonym if you want to–but I understand if that's just not for you right now. 🙂

  54. Nunquam Honorablus | May 24, 2011 at 7:55 pm | Reply

    On a side note, I remember hearing this Victoria's Secret story during ATF right before I went to the HA, like four years ago. I had never even considered that the story could be untrue until this post, lol.

  55. @Mike– Do you have any links for the documentation on those stories? I'd be curious to know how much this group intimidation stuff actually was practiced, and how much of it is Ron playing fast and, um, "loose" with the facts of his illustrations again.

    (As mentioned, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the story really ended, "So then they called the cops on them, and that goes to show you can expect persecution for your faith, especially when your faith involves acting like a jerk to total strangers.")

  56. @Eric – here's one copy of the story that's still online: http://www.wsbtv.com/news/10497015/detail.html

    Clint Wilder and Carpenter's Home Church (a Jacksonville-area storefront) were in the battlecry.com database at the time, there was some talk about this incident in that system from participants in the youth group he was running.

    Since-disbarred attorney Jack Thompson, named in the story, is a real piece of work and the sole source of some of Ron Luce's more bizarre/outrageous claims about youths using video games as training to go out and murder people. http://goo.gl/lg98w

    There was video on the battlecry.com website for a while that was shot in a Spencer's, with an employee babbling about how they were right about how awful the ornaments were. (I guess he never looked at anything else he was selling there.)

    As for Victoria's Secret, it's not uncommon for claims to be made by such organizations (specifically, Wildmon's AFA) that certain materials were removed, or advertising discontinued, as the result of such actions, when what really happened was that the advertising run/interior decor simply came to the planned end of its run. It's all spin from there.

  57. @Eric – here's one copy of the story that's still online: http://www.wsbtv.com/news/10497015/detail.html

    Clint Wilder and Carpenter's Home Church (a Jacksonville-area storefront) were in the battlecry.com database at the time, there was some talk about this incident in that system from participants in the youth group he was running.

    Since-disbarred attorney Jack Thompson, named in the story, is a real piece of work and the sole source of some of Ron Luce's more bizarre/outrageous claims about youths using video games as training to go out and murder people. http://goo.gl/lg98w

    There was video on the battlecry.com website for a while that was shot in a Spencer's, with an employee babbling about how they were right about how awful the ornaments were. (I guess he never looked at anything else he was selling there.)

    As for Victoria's Secret, it's not uncommon for claims to be made by such organizations (specifically, Wildmon's AFA) that certain materials were removed, or advertising discontinued, as the result of such actions, when what really happened was that the advertising run/interior decor simply came to the planned end of its run. It's all spin from there.

  58. just wondering what kind of witness is it to the manager at VS? I mean, i sure as a heck would never go to church after that.

    second of all VS was founded so a man could tastefully buy intimate things for his wife without going to a department store where he would feel awkward. but since KL doesn't were lingerie, i guess i could see why it offends RL so much.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Raymond_%28businessman%29

  59. As far as the story being true/untrue, it reminds me of the story that was told just about every year by different teams that after a prayer walk, storms washed away temples, or people started "tearing down the temples."

    Which, of course, is TOTAL b.s.

  60. I remember those stories. Well, I only heard it once, and I thought it was strange that my Hong Kong TL said "last summer after the team went through, there was a mudslide and the Temple of 10,000 Buddhas [where we were visiting] was washed out and the temple was closed for a year." While it did not appear that a mudslide had taken place, and it seemed folly to set up a temple on a site prone to mudslides, I did not have any evidence to the contrary, so I accepted the story. Certainly a temple can be rebuilt in a year, and 10,000 Buddha statues replaced. That is sad, so very sad.

    I honestly wonder where those stories come from…are they taught to the TL's? I was only an MA on my trip, and even then apparently I might not have gotten chosen save for the fact that I was an intern and we didn't have enough 18y.o. males to be MA's…but the way my TL asked me at the beginning of the trip "why should you be an MA?" kinda bugged me. To be honest, I thought responsibility in a minor leadership role was kinda cool, and the question really bugged me…like, "are you saying I'm not good enough to be an MA or what?" In reality, my internal answer to the "why should we make you an MA" was "because you don't have any other choice, you're a bit short-handed"…but I knew better than to verbalize it.

  61. @Eric – tried to reply earlier but the links I used may have tickled the spam filter. Google these four words: Pastor Clint Wilder spencers and the first story returned (at WSB) is about the Spencer's incident in Florida.

    Wilder's Jacksonville-area storefront, Carpenters Home Church, was in the battlecry.com database and his youth group was talking on there about orchestrating this confrontation.

    Jack Thompson, named in the story – look him up on wikipedia – is now a disbarred lawyer, he's the sole source of Ron Luce's outrageous/bizarre claims about youths training to murder people using video games. I'm not sure if there's a more direct relationship between him and Luce but it's interesting that he shows up in connection with this.

    There was, back then, a video on the Battlecry site involving a youth group and a Spencer's employee in a store, I'm not sure if it was from Florida or the similar incident in Arizona. This sort of in-store intimidation was openly being used as a selling point or example of desired youth action during the Battlecry campaign. Other than this one story about Wilder and his group, I've never seen third-party evidence that any other groups did anything like this.

    As for Victoria's Secret taking down posters, it's common for like-minded groups – in particular, Wildmon's AFA – to claim that their targets gave in to their demands when what actually happened is that the advertising campaign simply ended as planned. The rest is just spin. Likely a similar dynamic here.

  62. littlegraygirl | May 25, 2011 at 2:16 pm | Reply

    When I first got to the Honor Academy, I was told by a January who'd been there for 10 months already that I shouldn't go running along the track at night, because there was a guy that lurked in the woods and had been known to leap out and attack girls who were by themselves. At first I thought such a thing was ridiculous–"wouldn't we have known about it if that had really happened?" I asked. She assured me that it was kept quiet so that parents wouldn't get upset. I was eventually convinced, because, you know, I was at the HONOR ACADEMY and people there never lied or gossiped, so how could such a story have possibly gotten around unless it was true? (It didn't stop me from running the track by myself at night, mind you. I didn't want other people to see me running).

    I believed every story Ron ever told at ATF, because he obviously loved God more than anyone else in the world, and he obviously always told the truth.

    The Honor Academy keeps interns in a suspended state of childhood, in a lot of ways. It is like a glorified high school. All those silly stories we never even considered questioning remind me now of the ridiculous and unverified tales of horror and gore we would pass around as teenagers because we wanted to believe that they were true so bad. (You know…like the story about a girl who sits down on a needle in a movie theater and then sees a sticker on it that says, "congratulations, you now have HIV!")

    I am sure I heard this Victoria's Secret story at an ATF and cheered my head off with the rest of the auditorium upon its dramatic conclusion. And I'm sure I spent the following year wallowing in guilt and self-hate, thinking that I was failing God, because I never had the opportunity or the guts to "start a revolution" for Jesus like that.

  63. Liz,
    I was actually present when a man did indeed invite us to destroy a shrine that he had built after we came through.
    Some of those stories are indeed true. Now, it is completely possible that a story such as the one I just described can morph into not just a shrine he had built in his yard, but it was a temple, and not just a temple but it was THE temple where people came from miles around to worship at.

    Another one of those events that I recall is that there was a woman who was going to bury her living infant because she had a daughter, and people from my team talked with her, and she decided not to kill her daughter after all.
    This really did happen.
    I remember hearing this story from the stage from several people who had not been there, and this story changed into a procession down the street on the way to kill the infant, and that my team stopped the procession and convinced the mother not to kill the daughter.

    Especially when the stories are passed on verbally, stories have a tendency to become distorted and exaggerated, but just because something has become exaggerated does not mean that nothing of the sort ever happened.

  64. Philip E, you're right. I should have clarified that these stories probably have a basis in reality, but that they have been re-told and distorted over the years to the extent that they have barely any truth left to them.

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