The Myth of Matthew 18 Confrontation

One of the greatest objections to this blog is that I am not following the Bible’s prescription for confrontation as layed out in Matthew 18:5. “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone…”

To address this important issue, I’d like to quote an extended passage from the book Twisted Scriptures .

A strong principle used by the controlling leadership is that you must go straight to, and only to, the leader when you have a criticism.

The passage in Matthew 18 has been misapplied. It actually pertains to serious problems between two individuals that will involve the whole church if the person persists in doing wrong. The Bible specifices two different types of confrontations:

– Sin against a person, seek personal redress
– Sin against the congregation, seek congregational redress

Paul brings out this second, and much neglected, side of redress when he writes to Timothy, “Never entertain an accusation against an elder, unless there are two or three witnesses to accuse him. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all.”

Here we find a different standard being applied to leaders. They are protected from personal vendettas by requiring the testimony of several, but the redress is PUBLIC. Ironically, in abusive groups, it is the followers who are subjected to public rebuke for personal sins, rather than the leaders for sins against their flock.

It is important to ask yourself, how do two or three witnesses hear an accusation against an elder or any leader unless it is first discussed among members? Logically, you have to have permission to talk with members in order to find out if there are witnesses. In abusive environments, you are not to discuss problems about leadership with others, but go directly in private to the leader alone. We are told, however, that we shouldn’t accuse an elder unless there are two or three witnesses. How can leaders make this requirement conform with their demand for private discussion? Obviously, we have to discuss the leader’s conduct with others to find two or three confirmed testimonies in order to ascertain the truth.

We see another example of public confrontation of leadership in Galatians 2:14-15.

“When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the Gospel, I said to Peter IN FRONT OF THEM ALL, “You are a Jew yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?”

Basically, Peter was cowtowing to a group that insisted Gentiles adopt Jewish customs like circumcision to be considered real Christians. When Paul saw this, did he go to Peter in private? No! It was damaging to the Gospel so he confronted Peter in front of everyone. Not only that, but he actually wrote about it in his letter to the church in Galatia.

So, as we see from these two Scriptures (and there are others) that there is more than one way to exercise proper Biblical confrontation. When it is a matter between individuals, it is to be done privately. But when it is a matter of teaching or public hypocrisy, it is to be done publicly.

Everything I have stated on this blog has been a critique of Teen Mania’s actual public teachings OR a critique of the environment created there, which has been backed up by multiple witnesses per the requirements in I Timothy 5:19.

Tomorrow, I’d like to address the second most popular objection to this blog: slander.

442 Comments on "The Myth of Matthew 18 Confrontation"

  1. Woohoo! Grand slam by Recovering Alumni! 😉

  2. I remember so many times Mr. Hasz getting up on the mike in worldview, telling us all of his oppinions on people and how people acted and what was right, and what was wrong, and what he thought.
    He was telling us everything he believed in a public setting.
    Thank you for this recovering!!!!!! It's so helpful to beable to say that what Mr. Hasz told us was wrong. Really. Thanks for the effort you''re putting out in this blog.

  3. Thanks for the encouragement guys. 🙂

  4. Brilliant! Thank you

  5. If your claims are as atrocious as you claim, which they very well may be. Why would you have to run around anonymously to every member of the alumnus to find 3?

  6. To the first Anonymous:

    The only people I know to not give their opinions are those who are reading someone else's… While Dave has a strong opinion on things, his opinion had a biblical basis, something that is hard to find today, even among church leaders. I am thankful for Dave's opinions, even the ones I disagreed with. I am glad he told us everything he believed and not everything he was taught to say.

    As I man I repect and admire I always wanted to know what his thoughts were on things, events, situations, not so that I can adopt the same opinions, but so that I could examine my convictions and his convictions under a bibical light.

  7. AM, Not all of his opinions are based on the Bible. Some are contradictory to the Bible.

  8. Hi,

    I am happy that you posted and quoted regarding this sticky topic. What so often happens is that even if someone has enough courage to actually go to their leader, the leader will often use this little visit against the person. If there is no one else with the person, others in that group can be told anything about why this person came for a 'visit' and what the perceived issue is. Words can be twisted and shaped for the benefit of the leader.

    Other church leaders will inevitably favor the leader rather than the congregant. You are hooped however you try to 'go to the leader' idea. It pays to have someone else along with you if you venture to see a leader, especially when things are tense.

    Re-examining the Matt. 18 passage is a must, in order to get away from faulty interpretations that have been used against God's sheep.

    Barb
    http://www.churchexiters.com

  9. My favorite part about your comments is that you just state an opinion as fact regarding a post, but never provide any evidence or support for your opinion.

  10. There's a couple important parts of Paul's confrontation of Peter that I believe you're ignoring. And I see you creating harm to yourself and the Body of Christ as a whole as a result.

    1) Peter and Paul were peers, and accountable to one another. They also continued their relationship after the confrontation. A disagreement, confrontation, or an emotionally wounding experience can go many different directions. Pater and Paul stayed connected to work it out, and be reconciled to one another. Is that your intent?

    2) Paul didn't confront Peter in a public meeting, in front of the entire city's church, and then spread handbills around the city describing his side of his disagreement with Peter. According to the passage in Galatians, they where at a dinner party, with a delegation from Jerusalem and some of the gentile converts in the Antioch church. Paul's approach in this passage supports Matt 18, and doesn't modify it.

    3) Paul was an elder in Antioch, and spent time building the church there with Barnabas before leaving on his first missionary journey. Again, he was committed, involved, carried his responsibility to lead, shepherd and honor others in the context of their relationships and positional authority. His position within the community gave him the right to confront a fellow leader in front of those who were being wronged.

    I appreciate the grieving, and emotional anguish you're working out as a result of your experience at Teen Mania. But as a brother, following the same Christ, and who had to work out a lot of his own emotional issues, I don't see your approach supported by God's word. I don't see it leading toward reconciliation, which is at the heart of our call as believers. It's what Jesus was all about.

    I see you throwing gas on a smoldering fire, and I have to ask "Why?"

    In Christ
    Tim

  11. Erica Lynne Johnson | November 8, 2011 at 12:12 am | Reply

    I must say, this whole blog is quite eye opening and, to be honest, I am grateful for it. I was contemplating going to HA after I wnet on a GE trip. But, I saw a few things on my GE trip that really greived the Spirit in dealing with how the Gospel was represented– as a prosperity gospel and not as the Bible clearly displays it. However, I must agree with Tim and a few other commenters I have seen on this post and on other posts of yours.

    Are your intentions to truly bring reconciliation to the ENTIRE church as a whole, or just to prune a section of it? A "cult", from what I understand, is a religion that acts under the guise of Christianity. If this is the definition you are applying to the leaders and devotees of HA, then are you saying that their salvation not legitimate?

    I do not agree with Ron Luce on many things (All on the basis of Scripture), but I have never been so brave as to call him a cult leader. I guess, my main point is that I want to see both sides of the spectrum. You are my sister/brother and Christ and I would like to help you heal, but also to remind you that you standing up "for Christ's body and the Gospel", needs to be you doing JUST that. I've seen you be truthful, which is precisely what the Christian Community needs right now… but I hope you realize that you are now a world wide figure. Hold yourself accountable and love and use your voice to bring healing! I am proud of you! Keep your head up and your heart open.

  12. It's cute how timothy posts things without realizing how empty they ring.

    Peter and Paul were peers: what do you mean? Are there rankings under Christ, or are we all one in him?

    It would be convenient if we just covered up things in the churches past in the name of preventing damage, but the damage is done. You no doubt think people are in the wrong for exposing catholic priests who molest boys too.

  13. Timothy:

    Compare Titus 1:9. "He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it." Much of Teen Mania's public message (including public statements by Ron Luce, Dave Hasz and others) is demonstrably opposed to sound doctrine; therefore a public refutation is in order. Also note that RA has made a genuine attempt at reconciliation over the past year and been treated dismissively at best: here's the link.

    I'd also recommend you read D. A. Carson's short article on Matthew 18, which can be found here. One relevant quote:

    The sin described in the context of Matt 18:15–17 … is not talking about a widely circulated publication designed to turn large numbers of people in many parts of the world away from historic confessionalism. This latter sort of sin is very public and is already doing damage; it needs to be confronted and its damage undone in an equally public way.

  14. It's too bad these cultists haven't seemed to have read the rest of Matthew. But then they wouldn't have so many ways to make their millions of buck$. I always get angry when I hear about these sorts of abuses by so-called "Christians", or "Jesus cultists".

    My aunt was involved in Precept Ministries for many years. She died last New Year's Day, and the woman who run$ it, Kay Arthur, called (or my uncle called her). She was extremely nasty to my cousin, their daughter, telling her she was going to Hell, and that her mother was ashamed of her. Talk about hypocrisy.

    Then she showed up at the funeral service and was so "nice", and gave this ridiculously repetitive eulogy "can you imagine?" and went on and on. It was a thoroughly tedious affair. I experienced religion for about 3 days, then I quit because I've never been able to accept that the miracles in Jesus' life happened in reality, and are not parables or allegories, not meant to be taken literally.

    If it works for others, great, but it's the height of arrogance to presume to know what is best for someone else. I'm glad those of you have found the strength to leave this extremely destructive CULT and are seeking to help others in their recovery.

    I just saw a program on BookTV about a new book regarding the People's Temple mass suicide in Guyana in '79. You should be assured that this could have been a LOT worse . . .

  15. RA….. This is one of your most profound and important posts yet. THANK YOU!!

  16. You are not understanding Paul admonition about confronting elders. In context elders would have been carefully vetted to meet certian standards before they were put into the leadership position. As such and single accusation would not be easily entertained. HA is a parachurch organization. No one vetted Mr Luce for his position. He started the organization. HA is not a church. Please don't mistake accuse the Bible of a double standard just because it does not fix the organization's (HA) problems.

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