More Hypocrisy from Teen Mania

The Honor Academy website recently posted an article about SOPA titled, “Piracy is a Sin…Are You Involved?” It states:

Piracy is considered stealing…As Christians, are we sensitive to the extent of piracy? Do we justify piracy by not labeling our habits as piracy? Most Christians consider selling burned movies and CDs as piracy. However, when it comes to downloading free, pirated music and videos for personal entertainment, some Christians consider it acceptable. Before feature films, we watch piracy previews and copyright warnings. We scan over this info and think of all the stereotyped “thieves” out there. What if we scanned over these warnings and felt convicted for ourselves?

…we need to delete our pirated music and throw away our pirated movies. Why? Because our good and perfect Father commanded us to and nothing he commands is ever against us, but always for us. It is for our own good that we avoid steeling (sic) and instead, trust God to meet our every need.

This is unbelievable considering that Teen Mania regularly pirates music! For example, many of their CCM produced videos use copyrighted music. As far as I know, they are not paying for that privilege the same way that any legitimate television production company would (Teen Mania, feel free to disprove that!) Many ESOAL videos use multiple Christian songs that former CMM members confirm Teen Mania did not pay for.

(Note the irony of producing videos about honor and integrity using stolen music.)

In addition, Ron Luce himself has multiple pirated movies in his home! Or as Ron happily calls them at 1:02 “knock-off videos.”

Bonus points if you notice that Ron’s son is singing evil secular music in the background. (Most popular culture is “raping virgin America on the sidewalk” but Maroon 5 seems to have the Ron Luce stamp of approval.)

Teen Mania continually preaches a set of strict rules to teenagers – a set of rules they do not apply to themselves.

UPDATE: Commenter “Forever, Char” identifies herself as a CMM intern and confirms that Teen Mania DOES NOT pay to license music for its videos and that they do not believe they need to because they are a non-profit. She goes on to say that Teen Mania “checks and REchecks that they’re being legal with all their stuff (I would know, it was my job as an intern with CCM).” Its unfortunate that they did not train her correctly for her job considering that she is paying a lot of money to learn how to work in the television and film industry. Regardless of what Teen Mania told her, non-profits are not exempt from copyright rules. Doug Rittenhouse, head of CMM, knows better.

As someone with a degree in television production and several years spent working in the television industry, I can say that if I EVER used a piece of copyright music without licensing it, I would have been in very hot water.

1,351 Comments on "More Hypocrisy from Teen Mania"

  1. Life is sooooo much simpler when you're living love than when you're making lists of what other people should & shouldn't do. TM…. seriously…. it doesn't have to be this way!
    What's SOPA?

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  2. ishouldcareless | January 30, 2012 at 4:27 pm | Reply

    Is there any part of life that TM does not hypocritically stamp as "sin"?

  3. wanderer: SOPA is the Stop Online Piracy Act

    Sigh. I shouldn't be surprised about this. I first learned how to download illegally at the HA 🙂

    I think it stinks too that TM continues to moralize an issue without having a discussion about it. All piracy is a sin? I thought Dave showed us the Braveheart film he taped off of tv…

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  5. Nunquam Honorablus | January 30, 2012 at 5:16 pm | Reply

    Now that I think about it, it's not surprising that TM would stand behind something like SOPA.

    And come to think of it, that's where I learned to pirate music too! Oh, CCM.

  6. The interesting thing that many do not understand is that there are already piracy laws that have been in effect for years. This SOPA is about control of the internet and what people can watch or post.
    It is about control- so no wonder TM would love to promote SOPA so that anything posted here would be considered contraband.

  7. Something about SOPA tends to bring out the hypocrites. For those who missed it, none other than the senator who proposed the bill was busted by bloggers for using copyrighted images on his website without permission. Whoops.

    Obligatory Bible verse: "Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things." (Romans 2:1)

  8. I think Truth68 hit the nail on the head.

    Add me to the list of people who learned how to pirate music (without realizing that was what I was doing) at Teen Mania.

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  9. Really dude? Idk who you're talking to from CCM, but let's get THIS straight. One, if a nonprofit organization or individual uses music that is licensed, its fine, as long as they give credit where credit is due. You don't need to pay for it if you're not making money on it. So get off your high horse about TM "stealing" and actually go learn what piracy is defined as. Secondly, some videos CCM HAS made have been with full permission, support, even GUIDANCE or DIRECTION from the bands whose music we were using, like the Newsboys "Born Again" music video, as an example. In fact, if you'll recall, Michael Tate is IN the video. Doesn't exactly seem like "stealing" if you ask me.

    I think the real issue isn't so much with Teen Mania, who, btw, checks and REchecks that they're being legal with all their stuff (I would know, it was my job as an intern with CCM), but with those who find it ok to take money away from those whose living is earned through their God-given artistic abilities. Regardless of how they do it, why they do it, I agree. Integrity means being honest with yourself and doing the right thing even if it hurts your pocket.

    On a final note, you're not making your own case by nitpicking everything TM does. That just shows desperation to be right, not to actually bring about good change. Try doing a little more research next time please. Their intentions are good, even if the application is sometimes seemingly misguided.

  10. Forever, Char–I think you have been misinformed regarding copyright law and nonprofit organizations. Fair use doesn't cover nearly as much as you seem to think it does. And copyright lawyers don't care about good intentions.

    I remember when TM used to use the Braveheart (or was it the Last of the Mohicans?) soundtrack to promote the internship. I was only thirteen at the time, but I remember thinking, "That doesn't seem legal." And unless they actually went through the licensing, it wasn't legal.

    Do Christian and nonprofit organizations violate copyright law all the time, usually without facing repercussions? Yes. Does that make it right? No.

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  11. By the way, I used to work with copyrights, too, but on the other side of the issue. I was the person who approved or denied churches and non-profits the rights to use a popular musician's work for free in their church videos, songbooks, etc. Being a non-profit or a church does NOT equal free use of whatever licensed work you want to use–it doesn't matter that you're not making money on it, or that you're giving the artist credit. That's not how copyright law works. If that's what you were told at CCM, you were, unfortunately, misinformed.

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  12. Very informative brochure about non-profits, copyright and fair-use. Essentially, unless Teen Mania has permission for each individual instance of use "display" of copyrighted material then they are at substantial risk. Not-for-profit has no bearing on the issue.

    Interesting note about this website though. Pretend TM copyrights their material, the RA website can use the protected TM material without TM's consent to educate.

    http://www.publiccounsel.org/tools/publications/files/fairuse.pdf

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  13. Forever, Char – as the previous commenters pointed out, Teen Mania has misinformed you about copyright law.

    Of course, there is a difference between creating a music video for a band (like the Newsboys) and adding a music bed to a TM promotional video without consent or payment to the artist.

    I have actually spent several years working in the television industry – so you really should trust me on this one.

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  14. Ron Luce's oldest daughter, Hannah, was a roommate on one of my trips. In Garden Valley, Ron had compared a Christian listening to secular music to an American listening to the Taliban's music (i.e. the music of the enemy), so we were really surprised when Hannah told us that she mostly listens to secular music and that the only Christian music she likes is worship music.

    I don't remember her response when we all asked, "So how does that work with your dad equating secular music to terrorism?" Just that it was somehow OK.

    That and that Mrs. Luce's concern about buying idols (according to Hannah) was that they might be cursed, not that it would be, you know, supporting the religions we were trying to convert people from.

    Both things struck me as… off. Turns out I was just seeing the tip of the iceberg.

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  16. OK people it is time to get educated. If TM told you what the rules are:chances are you didn't look them up for yourself which is not a good thing. Don't be lemmings and never assume that the person above you knows what they are talking about. ( After all misinformation was the official reason for the current/last? Middle East conflict? Right? LOL )

    If TM uses a song on a promotional video it must be used with permission. This includes all videos shown at ATF's and those promoting (or "educating") people about the ATF's, the HA & missions trips.

    If it is used for educational purposes (which does not include religious propaganda), criticism, or parody then it does not require permission.

    One must also take into account the effect of the use on the value of the music.

    One must also take into account if the owner of said music would want their music associated with said user. Use could be interpreted as an endorsement of an organization. (For instance the removal of Tom Petty's music from all non-profit based endorsements of Repulican candidates)

    One could make a solid argument in court that all uses of music in a TM video are indeed for profit – because it effects thier bottom line. Any music used to entice people to come to an event, missions trip, or year at the HA can be considered for profit (because profits are involved) their classification of a "non-profit" does not exclude them from all criticism of use.

    There is a four fold test used to determine whether it is Fair Use. They must pass ALL four pre-requisites, not just one.

    Copyright infringement is not a black and white subject. I deal with it on a daily basis and the interpretation of it is multi-faceted.

  17. Forever, Char: Speaking as a professional musician / music producer… do you have any idea how hard it is to keep myself from sniping you with "Try doing a little more research next time, please"? I know, it seems like we're piling on you, but frankly, with your combination of ignorance and condescension, it's fair to say you had it coming.

    Naturally, I agree with everyone else. What TM told you about copyright law is just flat-out 100% wrong. You need an appropriate license for pretty much any use of copyrighted music, nonprofit or otherwise. In other words, Teen Mania is indeed "taking money away from those whose living is earned through their God-given artistic abilities." Any musician would be upset to find that a multi-million dollar organization didn't pay the licensing fee to use their music for fundraising. It's not like they couldn't afford it.

    I find it hard to believe that Teen Mania is genuinely unaware of this when a simple Google search can turn up any number of websites with correct information on copyright laws. The blog post itself condemns "downloading free, pirated music and videos for personal entertainment"; how is free music for corporate fundraising better? Either way, their hypocrisy reeks.

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  18. You know my name, Ron Luce's son. Really? My name is Cameron. How did you know that was a maroon 5 song? Hmmm, very interasting. I was making sure that I was raping Indonesian culture as well, obviously. I know that christs grace abounds everywhere. We live to worship god with our works. So thank you for rebukig me publically. I appreciate that. But doesn't Paul talk about if you see a brother in the lord sinning that you should pull him aside and rebuke him privately? Despite your critique of my evil ways, I forgive you for your viral judgement. Have a blessed day.

  19. You guys are rediculous. I have been praying about where to go to college for a while now and one particular time I remember I was praying one night and they very next day…BAM! I recieved an email from an intern at HA saying how they were interested in me. That was a while ago, but I'm still young and am still praying and weighing out my options on where to go. I am very talented at guitar and writing music and singing so i've been thinking about School of Worship. I prayed last night again about where to go to college and BAM! Someone sent me a link to this website. I am still praying on how to know the truth but right now I honestly think this is satan. He wants to hold me back from a great experience. I feel like the people testifying against HA are mad because they didn't allow God to use them in the ways they wanted instead of the ways HE wanted. So I'm not going to let this get me down. You guys should stop waisting your time testifying against HA.

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  20. No Cameron this is where you have it wrong- we live to worship God with our hearts. Our works mean nothing to Him if we do not love Him and love those around us. Our works do not save us. What many have been through here is real, whether or not you choose to see that. What many see here is the hypocrisy- where a leader says or does one thing but says or does another. What many see here is that the leaders of TM promote work oriented salvation that does not nothing but drive a further wedge between the interns and a true relationship with Christ. What many see here is an authoritarian type of organization that does not even compare to what Christ is who is our true Shepherd. What many have seen is abuse and disappointment in what Christianity has become today.

    TM is not the one who makes a Christian – that glory only belongs to Christ Himself.

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  21. Cameron,
    I don't believe anyone was intending to slam, rebuke or shame you. I'm also pretty sure there is no one here who thinks listening to Maroon 5 would be a sin. That wasn't the point at all…

    Hanna, grace as you make your decision. I'd encourage you to read through the whole site while you're in decision-making mode. Lots of good stuff on here!

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  22. Nunquam Honorablus | February 1, 2012 at 2:14 am | Reply

    Hanna: you're going to blindly believe the great things you hear about the HA, but doubt people who speak of their negative experiences and associate this community with Satan? It's great that you're still "praying to know the truth", but until you come to a more solid and factual conclusion you might not want to come in here toting judgment and stones.

    "Anything I disagree with is an attack from Satan omg" is a very weak argument, and quite honestly offensive to those who HAVE had genuinely abusive experiences.

    Also, *wasting

  23. Hi Cameron. Nice to see you here.

    I think you may have misunderstood the post. I actually wasn't rebuking you. I have no problem with secular music – its your dad that continually preaches against it. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy in telling other teens that listening to secular music is like getting raped by Satan while he allows his own kids to listen to it. Don't you think thats weird?

    Also, I didn't use your name on purpose. I figured that if people google your name, you wouldn't want this site popping up. I was trying to be considerate and I'm sorry that it did not come across that way.

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  24. And just to clarify – the saying "evil secular music" was intended as SARCASM.

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  25. littlegraygirl | February 1, 2012 at 3:19 am | Reply

    Ah, Cameron, thanks for dropping by! I remember when you were just a little guy. So adorable. 🙂

    Honestly, no one is bothered by the fact that you were singing Maroon 5. We don't think you are sinning. We aren't rebuking you. Listen to and enjoy whichever music makes you happy! RA was just pointing out that your dad tells American's teens that they shouldn't listen to secular music, even though his son obviously does. That is a little confusing to us, is all.

    I can tell you're a good kid. Keep being awesome. 🙂

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  26. Cameron, thanks for being brave and sharing your opinion here 🙂 I am an alum of Teen Mania and loved it! You're a good kid and have a great family. Your father is a great man of God!

  27. Cameron,

    I remember you as a great little kid who was eager to speak in public, had a great sense of humor and of himself, and you'd talk to just about anyone. Thank you for being bold enough to talk to us. You seem like you still have a great sense of humor and a good head on your shoulders.

    I'm very sorry if you felt rebuked. I don't want to speak for RA, but I can promise you that was certainly not her intent. I don't think you will find a single person on this website who has anything against you. You're great. But I know that sometimes when you see your family getting hung out to dry, it becomes personal. It's not. It's understandable, but really, it's not personal. I know that doesn't make it better for you. I'm sorry you got caught in the crossfire.

  28. So then tell me this: why, in all the years of making videos and putting on live events, have we never run into an issue about copyrights or usage?? Explain to me how your "years of experience in the industry" can argue with a lack of allegations against TM in this department? Also, what, pray tell, is the difference between playing the Braveheart/Mohican/ANY song as a theme on campus as opposed to a bachelor's party, or a birthday party somewhere else? What are the legal differences in that? Maybe I wasn't specific enough for you, but being at CCM, one of my jobs was to sit through every episode of ATF TV and write out a music cue sheet and get all our ducks lined up in a neat little row so we WOULDN'T get in trouble, so excuse me if I doubt your "experience", because, with all that, we were never legally in the wrong. Sometimes, if we weren't sure, we did a little research, we checked with a few people who DID know, and we dealt with it accordingly. Again, this whole post really just seems like one big pissy party out to get Teen Mania because of your own personal vendettas, and it's starting to get old. ESPECIALLY when you start slandering perfectly good and decent people who have done nothing to deserve such treatment. Try talking to some of these "cultists" and see what they have to say about their time there. As I mentioned in another post, MOST interns, present and past, do not share the same views as you do, and there's a reason for that.

  29. Forever, Char:

    I'm not going to respond to your claim that members of the RA community haven't talked to past interns to get their experiences, because it appears you haven't spent a lot of time on the blog or the "true stories" tab. However, I will respond to your concerns about copyrighting.

    Although I am no fan of ASCAP and RIAA, they own the licensing to the majority of published music. As you can see on their websites, you need permission to duplicate music. Although an artist (if they have the rights through their distribution contract) can grant free use of a recorded song, they do not have to. And simply "giving credit" is not enough.

    ***

    ASCAP's FAQ: http://www.ascap.com/licensing/licensingfaq.aspx

    "If you want to make copies of, or re-record an existing record, tape or CD, you will probably need the permission of both the music publisher and the record label. A music publisher owns the song (that is, the words and music) and a record company owns the "sound recording" (that is, what you hear… the artist singing, the musicians playing, the entire production).

    If you plan to hire your own musicians and singers and create an original recording of a copyrighted song, then you need the permission of only the music publisher."

    ****

    From the RIAA's website (http://www.riaa.com/aboutus.php?content_selector=licensing):

    "Common Examples of When You Need a Voluntary License Include:

    . . . Using a sound recording in a movie, commercial or other visual work. If you want to use a sound recording in a visual work, you need a synchronization license, so called because the music is "synched" to the video. You’ve already created your visual work and you want to put some music under it. You want just the music for your movie, commercial, documentary, sitcom, or any kind of audio/visual presentation, no matter where it is aired, even the Internet. Synchronization licenses are granted by individual sound recording copyright owners. "

    ****

    Meanwhile, here is some information about using music in videos in schools, which applies to nonprofit organizations. (http://www.school-video-news.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=306:copyright-issues-when-using-music-in-videos&catid=33:copyright&Itemid=51)

    And here you can find information about what defines fair use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use) You will see that it DOES include nonprofits, but only in an educational context. And educational context is typically defined very conservatively.

    ****

    There is a chance that TM was more careful when dealing with ATF TV because it was on television and would therefore cause them to lose a lot of money if they were caught. However, they have demonstrated for years that they don't care about copyrights by putting music that has not been licensed to them into promotional videos to be shown at ATF, training videos to be shown on campus, and videos that have been distributed extensively.

    The reason you have not run into trouble is the same reason that many people have tons of pirated material on their computers but haven't been prosecuted: there is such a massive breech of copyright law that it isn't possible or feasible to track it all down and prosecute it.

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  30. "So then tell me this: why, in all the years of making videos and putting on live events, have we never run into an issue about copyrights or usage??"
    -They haven't got caught yet.
    -The Christian music industry is in such a sad state that they probably consider it promotion from the amount of exposure gotten and weigh the pros and cons before pursuing action
    -Maybe they have and you just don't know about it. Do you really think they would tell an intern or even an average staff member about any lawsuits previously brought?
    -If TM plays music or veggie tale clips (as they used to) before an event, then they should get permission.

    "Explain to me how your "years of experience in the industry" can argue with a lack of allegations against TM in this department?"
    – I work for an entertainment law firm that specializes in infringement. My job is to assess all three points of view (defendent, plantiff,& interpretation that may result from a judge) & come up with arguments and at least 20 case citings for all three points of view. I have done this for over 10 years. My job is not to argue the "lack of allegations" against TM unless I get paid to do so. Honestly I don't care about the lack of allegations. (Not to sound mean its just not a relevant point for me.)

    "Also, what, pray tell, is the difference between playing the Braveheart/Mohican/ANY song as a theme on campus as opposed to a bachelor's party, or a birthday party somewhere else? "
    – The Mohicans etc…is a non-issue. However, have you ever noticed that when "Happy Birtday" is sung at a restaurant, it is always changed up? You can sing it in your house for free, but any establishment cannot sing it to you for free.

    "What are the legal differences in that? Maybe I wasn't specific enough for you, but being at CCM, one of my jobs was to sit through every episode of ATF TV and write out a music cue sheet and get all our ducks lined up in a neat little row so we WOULDN'T get in trouble, so excuse me if I doubt your "experience", because, with all that, we were never legally in the wrong. Sometimes, if we weren't sure, we did a little research, we checked with a few people who DID know, and we dealt with it accordingly."
    -Experienced addressed
    -Law is about interpretation. It is not always black and white. Everything is arguable in court within reason.
    -No one is always right. My firm just took on a very public figure who also thought they had their "ducks" in a row and it cost him millions.

    "Again, this whole post really just seems like one big pissy party out to get Teen Mania because of your own personal vendettas, and it's starting to get old. ESPECIALLY when you start slandering perfectly good and decent people who have done nothing to deserve such treatment. Try talking to some of these "cultists" and see what they have to say about their time there. As I mentioned in another post, MOST interns, present and past, do not share the same views as you do, and there's a reason for that."
    -I have no personal vendetta with TM. I had a mixed experiences like some people and was actually called "the TM poster child" by many interns. So don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
    Don't be so one sided because it will limit you and your knowledge.Life is about growing, evolving, and being able to understand diffrent points of view without knocking them. Real things happened and affected the lives of people…just because it did not happen to you, does not make it false.
    -Also please look up the legal definition of slander.
    My coffee break is over…gotta run.

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  31. Forever, Char: Thirty seconds on Google and you might have found this information:

    "Non-profits do not automatically have free license to reproduce copyrighted work without attribution or compensation."

    http://www.ehow.com/about_4793360_copyright-laws-fair-use-issues.html#ixzz1l8yCGug3

    Sorry, but you're wrong.

    Just because TM hasn't been prosecuted (yet…) doesn't mean you weren't legally in the wrong. Legal action is really expensive, so the recording industry usually prefers going after targets that are costing them so much that the hassle of litigation would be worthwhile. Like, for instance, people who sell pirated DVDs in Indonesia….

    I'm not aware that truth is determined by majority rule. Maybe the reason "most" interns don't share the views of this site (though several hundred do) is that they have never researched spiritual abuse and the techniques of cults. (As you might have heard, it is a good habit to research things properly before forming opinions on them.) Or maybe they don't think TM is abusive, while at the same time they are posting verbally abusive comments to wounded people.

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  32. Hanna: You write: "I prayed last night again about where to go to college and BAM! Someone sent me a link to this website. I am still praying on how to know the truth but right now I honestly think this is satan. He wants to hold me back from a great experience."

    What if it is God wanting to hold you back from a bad experience? I think you need to consider that possibility, which fits the data just as well.

    Going to Teen Mania is not a requirement for letting God use you in the ways He wants to– frankly, it's a warning sign right there that you seem to think so. Maybe one of the ways God wants to use people is to tell the truth about the deceptive and abusive practices that go on in His name.

    If you're praying about where to go to college, might I recommend my alma mater, Moody Bible Institute? It costs the same or less than HA I believe, and you get an actual accredited college degree as well as ministry experience.

  33. @Cameron Luce – I'm sure you're a sweet boy, but show a little respect. It was our blood, sweat and tears that gave you the many opportunities you've been blessed with, including (but not limited to) globe-trotting with your dad. Yes, we paid for that. What were we doing while you were running around the world, having a blast and adding all the little good-deads to your resume? We were working 60-plus hours for your dad's ministry, digging through couches for laundry money, begging rides to the greyhound station so we could get home for a week and see our families, building triple-decker bunkbeds in 100+ degree Texas heat, calling everyone we'd ever met to ask for donations (which went into your dad's minstry, btw), praying day and night for your family, yes, and specifically for you. So…show some respect. You stand on a legacy we built.

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  34. Hi, Cameron. I can understand how you misread the intent of the original post. I've done the same thing myself when I've read something about an issue that I really care about, or is about a friend or family member. I read it quickly, don't take context into consideration, and sometimes comment before I really think about it.

    Here is the thing: to many readers of this blog, your dad has been a hugely influential figure in their lives. They lived and died by his teachings on things like what a Godly life looks like and how to change the world. For a lot of us, one of the MAJOR elements of your dad's teaching was related to the fact that we were supposed to avoid secular music. That may not be as emphasized NOW as it was in the past, but many of us grew up with your dad's instruction that to listen to secular music or watch "bad" movies or we were welcoming the devil into our lives, giving him a foothold, being a bad witness, etc.

    So when some of us see a video like the one RA posted–which is pretty harmless on its own–it is jolting. Even if we have long since moved past the idea that secular music is evil, we remember what it was like to think your dad had it all figured out, and if we followed his leadership, we would be good Christians. We don't want to attack your dad, but there is definitely a feeling that what we're seeing (you singing along with Maroon 5 and your dad clearly not caring) is hypocritical, or at least a little ironic.

    I don't think that RA was rebuking you in any way, and I'm sorry if you got that idea. She was simply pointing out another inconsistency in a very long line of inconsistencies.

    • Write more, thats all I have to say. Literally, it seems as though you relied on the video to make your point. You clearly know what youre talking about, why throw away your intelligence on just posting videos to your blog when you could be giving us something informative to read?

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  35. Hanna, I'm troubled by your account of 2 emails causing you to believe God is affirming something you are praying about. Sometimes God does speak to us through things like this, but the majority of the time, He expects us to use our brain to make Godly decisions. Here are some things to consider when making Godly decisions: 1. pray for God to guide you 2. consult what the Bible says 3. ask yourself if this decision will make you more or less Christlike 4. do your research and be sure you are making a fully informed decision 5. consider how this decision lines up with your future goals 6. consult with your parents, pastor, and others who know you well to hear their guidance, direction, and concerns 7. pray for discernment as you sort through your research and the advice you receive.

    Discerning God's will is not like rolling a die and whatever number comes up is what God wants. Sometimes, God does use things like a timely email to help us focus on what He wants us to do. But other times, that is merely a coincidence and if we don't run our decisions through a filter of Godly decision making, we don't make good choices. Instead of looking for a supernatural sign from God, it is better to seek after wisdom. You are at a time in your life when you are trying to make a decision about what to do after school and Teen Mania knows this. So does the military and every college in your area. They will ALL be soliciting you. That does not mean it's God's will for you to any of those things! It can seem very overwhelming to make these kind of decisions, and I pray God will guide you and give you wisdom as you begin to make plans for your future!

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  36. TruthinLove "So then tell me this: why, in all the years of making videos and putting on live events, have we never run into an issue about copyrights or usage??"
    -They haven't got caught yet.

    Are you serious? They haven't got caught yet? It's a national conference with tons of publicity, I think someone has heard them use music by now. If bands aren't saying anything they obviously don't have a problem with it. Do you think if a band didn't want to be associated with something they would continue allowing their music to help promote something they didn't agree with? I seriously doubt it. Even if as you say "The Christian music industry is in such a sad state that they probably consider it promotion from the amount of exposure gotten and weigh the pros and cons before pursuing action"

    Also RA how do you know 100% that they don't get appropriate permission. Sure as an intern Forever, Char's job was to take care of things regarding this but why wouldn't a Manager or Supervisor be in charge of bigger things? They don't usually give 1st year interns jobs of that magnitude…

    Just wondering.

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  37. I know with certainty that multiple TM videos have not licensed music properly. How do I know? The creators of the videos in question told me so.

    Of course, I don't know about EVERY video – which is why I made note in my post above that TM could feel free to prove me wrong.

    Given my discussions with former CCM interns and Forever, Char's response – I don't feel confident that TM is teaching correct copyright/licensing practices to its interns. Which is doubly hypocritical when they condemn piracy ON THEIR OWN WEBSITE.

    When I worked for Ron Luce, there was a big kerfuffle because one of the songs in the guitar music book sold at ATFs had not been licensed. If I hadn't worked in the Executive Office, I wouldn't have known about it. How many other similar incidents are there?

  38. As a first year intern, I was given the responsibility of running an entire ATF Music audition festival. I was expected to find talent, book the talent, set up lodging for these people, and plan the two day itinerary.

    This was when the music label had just started out. They expected me to bring them new bands so they would sign with ATF Music.

    The festival was not successful. Bands were not tearing down the door to audition and I was not given adequate resources to execute such an event. I'm sure this is the main reason they took me out of my Admin Assistant position and put me in marketing as the writer.

    In the marketing team, legality was not a topic. I also wrote online devotionals and again, was never taught an aspect of copyright law.

    None of us on this site are out to slander anyone. But it's pretty crappy that when we tell the truth other people get on and call us liars or whiners, etc. That is not how Christ would have you treat His abused children.

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  39. FYI, I believe what Forever Char is referring to is music used under a Creative Commons license, which, for non-profit use, is often available for use in return for crediting the artists.

    That doesnt clear up every instance of copyright stuff, no, and I don't think she quite understands the overall rules regarding use of copyrighted material, but I believe that's what she was saying, as that would make more sense. Just to help understand her better.

  40. "…but why wouldn't a Manager or Supervisor be in charge of bigger things? They don't usually give 1st year interns jobs of that magnitude… "

    Uh, yes they do.

  41. Agreed, layne.

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  42. Is Teen Mania actually a non- profit? They don't give their money to any cause do they? It's more of a business right? How did they even get that status? Could someone tell me?

  43. Shiloh, Teen Mania is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization.

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  44. Here you go, Shiloh – information on 501.3c non-profit organization….http://goo.gl/kpoBq – "Some of the most common examples of not-for-profit companies are ones with "charitable, religious, education, or scientific purposes."

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  45. Seriously you guys? I could sit here and waste a whole half an hour or more explaining in DETAIL the ways we cover our own backsides, but that would be a bit pointless. Most of the comments I read leave me wondering if saying anything counter to your own arguments would be productive in any way, or even reasonably heard. I can say this much, with the amount of paperwork we deal with at CCM, they red tape we have to maneuver through, and all the double checking with the Board, I can honestly say, at least for the last three years, we've been doing what is right and legal. We respect the artists, and their rights, so please, just back off.

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  46. Forever, Char – I actually think it would be very helpful if you could explain to us all the paperwork and red tape CMM goes through – and on exactly what videos – so that we can see if they are truly following copyright law. If they are, then I will say so.

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  47. Future Cult Leader | February 7, 2012 at 1:44 am | Reply

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  48. Agreed, RA. Given how lax TM's standards for record-keeping have proven to be, and how often there is an attempt to avoid accountability, I wonder how much "a lot of red tape" in TM-speak equals to actual best-practice standards.
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