Is It Legal to REQUIRE Donations?

I don’t know, but I’d like to find out!

Interns who’ve been financially dismissed tell me that they often have to sign a paper promising to pay back their account since they’ve falled behind on their “donations.” In some cases, I’m told that Teen Mania even threatens them with sending their account to a collections officer.

That sure doesn’t sound like a “donation” to me!

We all know that Teen Mania claims that intern donations go into the “general fund” and are therefore tax-deductible, yet they also keep track of each intern’s account balance.

So which is it? A general fund or an individual intern’s account?

Inquiring minds want to know.

If you have documentation (emails, letters) showing any of the above (your individual account balance, donations owed, etc)please send them to me at recoveringalumni at hotmail.com and I will meet with an attorney to discuss the legality of these financial dealings. Then we’ll know once and for all!

And so will Teen Mania.

553 Comments on "Is It Legal to REQUIRE Donations?"

  1. Actually.
    This a great point.

    I know I was passed due on my account for CCM. AND.. I they never called me out on it.. But I also owed money for my mission trip that I had already went on back in 2006.
    I still owe money for that trip.
    When I was an intern I had some friends who worked in GE look up my account, and there it was.. my account and how much I owed.
    I think it was like 300 bucks or something.

  2. Just Wondering | April 19, 2012 at 11:27 pm | Reply

    What is your obsession with trying to destroy Teen Mania Ministries? You're like "consumed" by the goal. What's wrong with just warning people what they might get into?

  3. Just wondering.
    Just so you know- I'm personally SO GREATFUL for the ground work RA has done. What I would hope is obvious is that, the more info out there, the better informed we can be.
    Why would you even question a person looking for the truth?

  4. Just wondering, we are just trying to hold tm accountable. Like they told us we are supposed to do.

  5. However, if you are an intern who is vital to the ministry, they will magically wipe your slate clean. I have seen it done, even to the tune of $4000.00 in one intern's case.

  6. What's wrong with flirting with the idea of TM handling finances in a way that could be sketchy? This could be the nail in the coffin. Maybe TM should of thought of hiring a lawyer when they set up their finances. They probably had an intern do it, or even more pathetic, a graduate intern. I wonder how they survived for 25 years without an audit, especially being a ministry? Well here comes your audit, Teen Mania Ministries, courtesy of your friendly Recovering Alumni

  7. what's wrong is that the ministry preaches about the appearance of evil and not to even look like you're doing wrong.

  8. Just Wondering: Who said anything about "destroying" TM? All this post says is that TM's method of handling donations appears self-contradictory, so RA wants to find out the facts, including asking a lawyer about the details.

    If TM's finances are totally legal and above board, then the simple question couldn't possibly "destroy" them or even hurt them. The conversation with the lawyer would go like this: "Here's what TM does. Is it illegal?" "No." Case dismissed.

    However, if it turns out what TM is doing actually is illegal, then there probably will be repercussions. There ought to be; that's why the laws are there. But that's hardly the fault of the whistleblowers.

    The fact that you're worried that this simple question could "destroy" TM says quite a bit, actually.

  9. Also Wondering | April 20, 2012 at 4:26 pm | Reply

    OK, so we find out its illegal. What are we going to do, hire a lawyer to make TM change their wording? Are we going to sue them? Who will pay for the lawyer? What does this have to do with spiritual abuse? Why haven't they been audited several times already in the past 25 years of being a ministry? Is it illegal for those televangelist dudes to be like, "With your 'donation' of $25 or more you will get this official book written by me."? If we want to blow a whistle about recovery, why doesn't it have to do with the legalities of spiritual abuse? It just me or does it feel like this site has moved away from a focus on recovery to a focus on attack?

  10. Attack? I call it accountability.

  11. what does it have to do with spiritual abuse? How about the fact that while they hammered it into us to follow all the laws of the country we lived in unless they contradicted the Bible or we were sinning, they might have been breaking the law to avoid paying their fair amount of taxes? That they make us feel the full weight of the Law, no mercy allowed, then might be turning around and doing the EXACT OPPOSITE of what they told us we needed to do to be holy like them?

  12. In addition to my interest in spiritual abuse, I am also a taxpayer. If Teen Mania is gaming the system and shortchanging the government, I certainly have an interest in that, too.

  13. Financial abuse in the name of religion is spiritual abuse.

    If there's a criminal case here (such as tax fraud), the government would handle the legal side of things. Again, if TM isn't committing tax fraud or extortion or racketeering or anything like that, they've got nothing at all to worry about. (So… why are they worried?)

    What does this have to do with recovery? Well, (theoretically) putting TM leaders in jail for federal crimes would certainly be an effective way to limit their ability to spiritually abuse other people. And certainly it's very healing to see that abusive authorities are not as "honorable" as they portrayed themselves. The two aren't nearly as exclusive as you seem to think!

  14. What does it have to do with recovery and spiritual abuse? How about the fact that the tactics they use against (at least some of) the people who are behind) are harmful, divisive, less than helpful/loving, lack integrity…

  15. Ive often wondered about this, seeing as they have the intent to deceive when they tell people not to write intern or missionary ID numbers on the checks and to put them on a sticky note instead. Essentially evading taxation for the donors when the money is actually not going toward a general pool but rather is recorded towards intern's financial records.

  16. Hmm. I worked with another Christian non-profit that had us run our support checks through the business office to take out taxes and SS. I think that keeping the individual's name off the check is a fairly standard practice for some 501c3 orgs. The only difference, and I do believe that it is an important and notable one, is that after taxes and SS were taken out, then combined donations were paid directly to the individual in the form of a bi-monthly paycheck. What makes me uneasy is that, as RA pointed out, people are being dismissed on the basis of donations that are going straight into TM coffers. Sounds unethical to me.

  17. TM has a nasty habit of skirting laws/regulations until someone calls them out on it.

  18. I appreciate and support what you're doing, RA.

  19. I'm not 100% sure but about 90% sure that TM willingly goes through an audit every year actually in regards to their finances. Also I have never heard of anyone ever getting sent to collections, is there actually proof of that happening?, if so that is kind of crazy. I also have never heard of anyone having to sign a letter to promise to bring their account current after getting dismissed, again is there proof of that?

    I never got dismissed for finances but I definitely still owe money on a GE trip and have never been harassed about it as I believe they just write it off at the end of the fiscal year, even though it still shows up on your CRM account, I'm pretty sure they just write it off.

    Anyway, it'd be interesting to hear what comes of all this.

  20. TMM gets audited by auditors EVERY year. I've been there for it, and seen the preparations that go into getting ready for it. You're not going to find out anything that isn't already known. But, if it'll keep ya busy and off the streets, go for it.

  21. Nunquam Honorablus | April 24, 2012 at 6:41 pm | Reply

    "I also have never heard of anyone having to sign a letter to promise to bring their account current after getting dismissed, again is there proof of that?"

    I had to sign a "contract", saying that I would pay back about 520 a month until my tuition was caught up when I got financially dismissed, in 2009.

    Of course, I didn't realize how ridiculous that was at the time, when I wasn't even sure where I would be staying at the time I got booted.

  22. Even the noblest of crusaders are capable of hypocrisy; and it usually involves money.

  23. "Even the noblest of crusaders are capable of hypocrisy; and it usually involves money."

    Then maybe they're not so noble.

  24. Eric, I like your scenario with the lawyer. I think it needs a little editing though. Here is what will probably happen.
    RA: "Is this stuff legal?"
    Lawyer: "Looks sketchy. I'll write them an official letter for you."
    RA: "Gee, thanks!"
    Two weeks later RA gets a bill in the mail for $200 from the lawyer's office. So she makes a call to the lawyer's secretary.
    RA: I need to talk to Lawyer.
    Secretary: Sorry he/she is in a meeting.
    RA: What is this bill all about? He/she said it was a free consultation.
    Secretary: From my end it shows that you agreed to have Mr/Mrs Lawyer render services in the form of an official letter during your consultation.
    RA: Fine
    Two weeks later RA receives a second bill for $250. She calls back to talk to Secretary again who informs her that this is for the actual letter and the first $200 was for the meeting.
    Two weeks later RA receives another bill for $200 dollars. She calls back and Secretary informs her that every time she calls the office there is a minimum fee of $100 and that she is in the process of recording the present call in her billing records. RA says she isn't paying. Secretary says "See you in small claims court." RA says, I'm finding another lawyer. Secretary says, "OK". TM never gets a letter.

  25. Lawyers?!?!

  26. Doug do you want me to bring you some stones to throw?

  27. It would be a mistake to assume that I'm poor or that I don't know how to deal with attorneys. But if it helps you sleep at night…

  28. Vega: First, what makes you so certain that the answer to "Is this illegal?" will be No? I'm not a lawyer, but TM's finances look pretty darn sketchy from where I'm standing. Reminds me a bit of Chicago politics, in fact; this way for your "campaign contribution…"

    Second, I have friends who are lawyers who have been quite willing to answer simple legal questions for me (in a non-official capacity, of course) for $0. Other lawyers sometimes take on civil rights or social justice cases pro bono.

    Third, you're mistaking civil law and criminal law. If TM is committing tax fraud (a federal crime), then RA won't be the one paying for the legal proceedings. Try the IRS.

    I do think it would be totally worth $450 to find out, though. All I'm saying is that TM has nothing to fear unless they're actually abusing the law– and that I think that's a pretty significant "unless."

  29. A group of us already tried to investigate 5 years ago….everything is legit, or the appearance thereof anyway :). Nothing was found except neat and tidy audit records from every year prior.

  30. Nicholas, I'd be interested to hear more about that. Shoot me an email.

  31. Charlie Brown | April 26, 2012 at 7:42 pm | Reply

    The manor in which TM handles donations is legal according to the letter of the law. It does however violate the spirit of the law.

    TM can't "sell" anything and allow the cost to be tax-deductible for the buyer. That violates tax law. Donors can not specify how a donation is to be used because that makes the transaction a purchase, and not a donation. A purchase engages the 2 parties in a legally binding contract. If party A does not provide the goods/services that party B specified, party A is in violation of the contract and thus party B is release from the contract (aka they can get their money back).

    The loophole TM uses to bypass the law is by contractually disassociating the donation from the intended use. That is why you can't write on the physical check.

    It's a "wink and nod" system. "Oh hey TM it's good to see you! Hey, here is $500 that you should use however you see fit. Oh by the way, I have a friend in your area. His name is Jon Doe. If you see fit, he's looking for a place to stay and some people to teach him stuff. " To which TM responds "Jon Doe huh? I'll keep an eye out for him, and if I see fit, I'll see what I can do for him."

    That is also why you're can't get a refund for "donations". There is no contract.

    It completely violates the intent of the law, but because they're not guaranteeing that they will provide a service/good for Jon Doe, they're not violating the letter of the law.

    What that also means is that you can't owe them money. If they have provided you with "an internship" it's because that is what they as an organization saw fit to do. They can't legally make you pay for something that they have gifted to you. Now…if you sign a contract that says you will give them XYZ dollars, then you do actually have to give them XYZ dollars. But, I can guarantee you that the contract doesn't lay out that you owe them money for goods/services rendered…aka "an internship".

    The reason this matters is not because we're trying to sue TM, but because it highlights the hypocrisy that TM operates in. They teach things like "honor is what you do when nobody is looking", and then they base their entire fiscal solvency on a system meets the letter of the law, but intentionally violates the spirit of the law.

    (And by "intentionally violates the spirit of the law" I'm referring to the fact that TM tells you to put a note in the envelope with the check to specify who it is for)

  32. Charlie Brown, I would be interested in hearing how that plays out with the contracts they require both the Internet and parents to sign. I have copies of the most recent ones available.

  33. Never sign a contract with the internet, I say. 😉

  34. Doug, that's probably the smartest thing I've heard you say yet.

  35. RA, I think that there is truth in some of the things you say about Teen Mania. However, I am not convinced that everything you say about Teen Mania is true.

    The challenge for a person like me, who, being a very logical thinker, insists that the conclusions must deductively follow from the evidence, is that I can't figure out how much of what you say I should trust.

    Your perspective of Teen Mania is pretty clear from your posts, and I suspect that your dislike of Teen Mania prevents you from really being objective. Meaning, you don't see things the way that they actually are. Consequently, your blog's value is diminished, because people come here and think "This thing is just run by a few disgruntled people that are looking for something to be wrong."

    The trouble is, there probably are things wrong with Teen Mania – but not everything. And by drawing conclusions that the evidence doesn't support, you discredit yourself as an objective observer. Like the boy who cried wolf, people stop listening to you. So when the wolf really does come along, your warning goes unheeded, and a lot of people get hurt.

    If you want your blog to be successful, you need to make sure you don't come across as just "a handful of disgruntled people trying to ruin things for everyone."

    Honestly, that's how you come across to me.

    So my challenge to you is, prove me wrong. Use good debating skills, and just once, argue the other side. Write a post (not a comment, a POST) about the things that Teen Mania does that are good, talk about the parts of ATF, GE, and HA that are valuable, despite the fact that [in your opinion] they are parts of a destructive program. What you would recommend to someone, if they were starting a Christian internship and wanted to help people grow – what parts of Teen Mania's programs are good?

    I'm not asking you to change your opinion about Teen Mania. I'm asking you to be intellectually honest, and not to throw the baby out with the bathwater (even if there's a lot of bathwater).

    If you can't (or don't) point out the things that Teen Mania is doing right, even in the midst of a lot of bad things, I'll always think that you're not capable of seeing the good things – and that you're not impartial – and I'll never give any seriousness to what you have to say.

  36. Anonymous – I've been writing here for almost 3 years and I do believe I have done what you've asked here. Have you had a chance to extensively read all I've written?

    By your own logic, you shouldn't "give any seriousness" to what Teen Mania has to say either, since they don't openly discuss their many serious flaws.

  37. RA,

    If you every find yourself looking for another career, might I suggest truck driving?

    The reason I think you'd be EXCELLENT at it is because you're very good at turning things around.

    Just a thought.

  38. When your own logic comes back to bite you, start attacking the messenger.

    Tactic right out of TM's playbook.

  39. You know, there were a lot of good things happening in Nazi Germany during the thirties, and yet all you Americans want to focus on are the Jews, the Jews, the Jews! Why can't you give Hitler credit for the many things he improved instead of being so biased and only focusing on the little mistakes he made? It just isn't logical.

  40. @dougduncan- Really? Comparing TM with the Holocaust? I agree with Anonymous April 30 1:39. Be intellectually honest. Clearly, even if you think there is abuse, it's inflammatory to compare something to the murder of approxamately 12 million people. More than inflammatory – plain out offensive. I lived in Europe for a while and have many friends there – friends from Germany, Poland, Romania….etc…etc…. I think they would vehemently disagree with any kind of comparison. In fact, I'm SURE of it. My German friends would be livid because they know all too well the horror of what happened in Nazi Germany. Good reason they have no reason to read this blog. So would my husband's best friend who is a Jew.

    If your point is that we can't simply dismiss concerns about TM because they do good, I think that is a valid contention. But you just lost all credibility to anyone trained in debate or propoganda techniques. Certainly you can make your point without resorting to what can only be described as fallacy and an appeal to pathos that frankly is just wrong. Pulling the holocaust card out – wow. I don't know what to say about that. Except that it's a type of propogranda. Actually, several types. Your comment falls under false analogy, use of inflammatory language, and attack of the straw man all in one off the top of my head and probably more if I took the time to really look at it. False analogy because even if the point is correct they are certainly not on the same level as WWII. Use of inflammatory language – well, the nazis and hitler? Um…yeah 'nough said. And attack of the straw man. The definition of attacking the straw man is attacking a position your oponent is not actually advocating. Anonymous was simply saying that conceeding points strengthens an academic debate/argument and that the RA community would be better served by acknowledging that fact. This is actually quite true. You should remember that from college. Specifically English Composition II mandated in all American colleges is quite clear on this point.

    You took what they said, over simplified it (a technique called reductio ad absurdum)and then threw out just about every reasonable rule of academic debate (I could go on for hours about the many ways that doesn't fit good debate form). You used BLATANT propoganda – right out of the propoganda study materials I studied for basic HS level competitions – curious for someone whom I've seen on this board accuse Teen Mania of the same thing. And I'm supposed to trust that you are intellectually honest and be persuaded by your arguments? Um……no. I don't get offended easily but as someone who has been to Auschwitz and Dachau and was horrified by what I saw there I have to say I am now.

  41. Anonymous: Try these posts, to start with:

    My first year as an intern was amazing. So many new experiences, being on my own for the first time, feeling like I was a part of something important, growing in my passion for God, making great friends. All these things were wonderful. I LOVED Teen Mania.My Story (linked right there at the top)

    And:

    Focusing on the Negative?
    For those who love Teen Mania
    How a Pro-TM Alumnus Learned to Listen
    Good Will Come

    And just one with RA's suggestion for an actual Christ-centered internship experience: How about EHOAL?

    There are several others, too, but I'll let you take the time to do the research yourself. Which, may I say, you could have done before commenting.

    Now, can you point us to blog posts (not comments, POSTS) written by Dave Hasz, Heath Stoner, Ron Luce, or any other TM leader, that objectively present the facts of this blog's point of view? That say, "X and Y and Z really happened, and we were wrong to do that, because it taught a works-based Gospel, and some of what we said was lies, and people were really hurt because of all of that, and it objectively meets the criteria for spiritual abuse?" (Bonus points if you can find one where they express sincere repentance for their actions.)

    Also, please tell us specifically some of the "many things" you think are wrong about Teen Mania, and how they ought to be changed.

    If you can't do that, then I think we've just proved which group is really being objective– and therefore, by your logic, true, accurate, and trustworthy– about Teen Mania.

  42. While its not wise to pull out the Nazi card in debates (because of misunderstandings and over-reactions such as this one), I think its important to realize that Doug was not equating TM with Nazi Germany. That really should be a no-brainer. His analogy served to highlight the principles and logic behind the suggestion given by anonymous above – he took that logic to its absurdity by showing how it doesn't apply to gross evil – therefore it doesn't apply to lesser evil either.

    Funny enough, its Teen Mania who actually compares themselves to Nazi Germany. Randy Olson (current head of the Honor Academy Undergraduates?) described his first time in ESOAL by saying it was "like a concentration camp."

  43. @RA – I'm sure that it's NOT an over-reaction. And please don't throw away my comments that easily. Especially when I made several academic points regarding the propoganda Doug used. And taking logic to it's absurdity IS a form of propoganda itself. Perhaps before saying TM uses propoganda those on the board should actually research it, thereby ensuring they are not doing the same thing they accuse TM of doing? I was a champion in HS in Propoganda Analysis competitions and spent a long time looking into it. And I know Randy Olson. I've never heard him say that but if I did I probably would have said something to him about it. I can't say something unless I hear it but rest assured that if I did I would have said something.

  44. I'm not sure if the anonymous that originally started this conversation by suggesting I not throw out the baby with the bathwater, but regardless, I fail to see how these comments are helpful to the people in real pain over their experience at TM.

  45. Doug Duncan | May 2, 2012 at 3:07 am | Reply

    Anon,
    Indeed, it is generally in bad taste to use the “Nazi card” in arguments, but RA understood my point. I suppose you enjoyed pretending to be in high dudgeon, but I doubt you were genuinely offended.
    In a forum where people are trying to process the very real hurts they suffered as a result of their time at the HA, the TM apologists who to come on here and harp about the supposed good done by TM are insensitive, to say the least. Moreover, it trivializes those hurts to treat this discussion like it is just another iteration of your high school debate society.

  46. (Here's the second part)

    To say that "we've just proved which group is really being objective" based on one comment from a random anonymous guy on the internet is exactly the sort of jumping to conclusions I'm talking about. You haven't proved anything, except that maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. How do you know that I'm in the pro-TM group? I might be a part of the RA community, trying to say that we need to do a better job. If we're going to be successful in preventing TM from hurting other people, is it wrong to say that some (not all) of the conclusions we're coming to are a bit of a stretch, given the evidence? (Like… to show that interns are required to give donations, have you seen an invoice that TM has sent to someone for their internship? Have you seen a letter showing an intern's account being sent to a collections agency? THAT would definitely show that TM requires donations.) Don't assume that you've disproved the entire pro-TM group just because you came up with a good counter-argument for one random guy on the internet who posted an anonymous comment on a blog.

    Lastly, RA, I do not mean to come across as trivializing people's hurts, and I don't mean to say that this discussion is like another iteration of the high school debate society. But these are important discussions, I think. And if it were me, I'd welcome feedback that helped refine the message I was giving, to make it more effective. That's what I'm trying to accomplish.

  47. I think that a huge part of my comment just got deleted, not sure why. Maybe you meant to delete the person with poor taste in language?

  48. (Due to limitations, this comment is in a few parts. Here's the first one.)

    So, I am the anonymous that suggested not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. (None of the anonymous comments between that one and this one were written by me, although I realize you have no way to verify that.)

    I don't have the personal bandwidth to respond all of the comments on three separate fronts (Eric, RA, and Doug), so here are just a couple of things.

    Doug, the essence of my message is that RA seems to look at almost anything she finds and draws some conclusion from it to support her claim that Teen Mania consists of close-minded, abusive, cult-like programs and leaders. Note, I said "SEEMS" – key word. Maybe she actually does see things objectively and does have an impartial perspective (meaning, she's been fair and honest in her assessments).
    But that's not what I'm lead to believe.

    As I said before, the true danger is that if Teen Mania really is a cult-like, abusive, organization, her warnings may go unheeded because she so often seems to draw unfounded conclusions. The dangerous consequence is that people might get hurt, because people stop listening to the "boy who cried wolf."

    So, I hope that helps you understand – I'm not a TM apologist, and I'm not trying to trivialize the very real hurts that people have suffered as a result of their involvement with Teen Mania.

    As for the Hitler comment, I think that your point was this: The ends don't justify the means. That is, a few good things going on in Germany does not justify the genocide that it took to get there. I wholeheartedly agree. Likewise, there is nothing that justifies exploiting and abusing people emotionally, physically, and spiritually.

    How is that related to seeing things with a right perspective?

  49. (Second part)
    Eric:
    To put it more clearly, my challenge is to write a positively-toned article about what Christian evangelism and leadership training should be, incorporating the good things that Teen Mania did or intended to do.

    You are saying that's what you think those articles you mentioned are?

    Maybe you misunderstood, or more likely I did a poor job communicating. The article you posted coming closest to what I'm talking about is probably Hayley's story, but that's about a TM supporting learning to see the value in the RA stories. I don't see the connection between that and what I'm referring to.

    The EHOAL article also comes close, but it's a pretty negative sounding article (using phrases like "beating the crap", etc), and I don't think it mentions anything positive about Teen Mania.

    Also, if you were going to apply my challenge to the pro-Teen Mania group, then you would be challenging them to write a positive article about the good things the RA community is saying/doing. I'd refer you to the very same article you mentioned – Hayley's story.

    If you say that the pro-TM group needs to point out wrong things that Teen Mania has done, then you would imply that my challenge was for the RA community to point out the wrong things that the RA community has done. I think you'd agree with me, that would NOT be beneficial to anyone. Is it unfair to say that for TM to point out their wrong doings would likewise not be beneficial?

  50. (Here's the third part)

    To say that "we've just proved which group is really being objective" based on one comment from a random anonymous guy on the internet is exactly the sort of jumping to conclusions I'm talking about. You haven't proved anything, except that maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. How do you know that I'm in the pro-TM group? I might be a part of the RA community, trying to say that we need to do a better job. If we're going to be successful in preventing TM from hurting other people, is it wrong to say that some (not all) of the conclusions we're coming to are a bit of a stretch, given the evidence? (Like… to show that interns are required to give donations, have you seen an invoice that TM has sent to someone for their internship? Have you seen a letter showing an intern's account being sent to a collections agency? THAT would definitely show that TM requires donations.) Don't assume that you've disproved the entire pro-TM group just because you came up with a good counter-argument for one random guy on the internet who posted an anonymous comment on a blog.

    Lastly, RA, I do not mean to come across as trivializing people's hurts, and I don't mean to say that this discussion is like another iteration of the high school debate society. But these are important discussions, I think. And if it were me, I'd welcome feedback that helped refine the message I was giving, to make it more effective. That's what I'm trying to accomplish.

  51. Anonymous with the Multiple Comments – You didn't get deleted, for some reason the first ones went into the spam folder…happens to Eric sometimes too. Not sure why.

    Thanks for coming back to clarify your position.

    As to the original post here, I don't think I've drawn a conclusion on TM's financial practices – I actually asked for more evidence so that I could talk to an expert. Isn't that a wise way to go about things? Especially considering I'm not a financial expert of any kind.

    I'm not sure how the article you want me to write is relevant to this audience. The people who read this blog already know the good things about Teen Mania and likely blame themselves for everything that is wrong with their life instead of realizing TM played a big part in it – so one of the challenges of recovery is learning to assign responsibility where it is due and that is what this blog helps accomplish.

  52. Anonymous–

    The links I provided were a few that matched your request, "Write a post… about the things that Teen Mania does that are good." If that wasn't actually what you meant to say, fine, but don't move the goalposts and say we didn't have a point. I'm sure if you take the time to do more thorough reading (as I also suggested), you could find a post you like.

    There was also, it should be noted, a link dedicated to answering the "focusing on the negative" line, which is a stock phrase that TM supporters have repeated over the years. Don't you see why TM would prefer RA not to "focus on the negative"? They don't want anybody to know the facts of their abuse!

    As RA says, if you read carefully, this post about "required donations" is asking for documentation, so it's a bit silly to complain that it's "a stretch" that it doesn't offer any.

    Fact is, a blog is allowed to focus on whatever its writers think it's worthwhile to focus on. It's not like there's a shortage of unqualified positive accounts of TM, as provided by TM themselves. Most people would understand if (say) a rape survivors blog didn't mention the positive qualities of the rapists' careers in business, or if a blog about alcoholism didn't praise the conviviality of social drinking. It's simply irrelevant to the conversation. As you yourself say, "there is nothing that justifies exploiting and abusing people emotionally, physically, and spiritually." None of HA's good qualities outweigh their systemic abuse, so it's irrelevant and petty to insist that HA's abuse victims "focus" on them.

    > "Don't assume that you've disproved the entire pro-TM group…"

    If anyone connected with "the pro-TM group" can produce a post like the one I described, I'll be absolutely delighted to change my conclusion.

    > "Is it unfair to say that for TM to point out their wrong doings would likewise not be beneficial?"

    It's called confession and repentance, and comes very highly recommended to sinners of all kinds. I think it would be about the most beneficial thing TM could possibly do at this stage.

  53. Doug Duncan | May 2, 2012 at 3:22 pm | Reply

    Anonymous 11:58 says:
    "So, I am the anonymous that suggested not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. (None of the anonymous comments between that one and this one were written by me, although I realize you have no way to verify that.)"

    Gosh, it would sure be helpful if you could post as someone other than "Anonymous." You don't have to reveal your real identity–make up a whimsical name. It would just make it easier to keep track of who is posting.

  54. The Bathwater Guy | May 2, 2012 at 5:43 pm | Reply

    Eric,

    You imply a comparison between the HA and a rapist. From my viewpoint, the entirety of the motivation of a rapist is the selfish desire for sexual pleasure, at the expense of the victim. There is no benefit whatsoever in the experience for the victim, although God could certainly bring good from the situation through the birth of a child.

    That seems to indicate that you believe the entirety of the TM's motivation in providing the HA program is to derive some sort of pleasure or satisfaction, at the expense of the participants.

    If that's what you (or rather, RA) believe, then you've answered my question. You don't believe there are any good intentions in Teen Mania, and in that case, I don't expect you to be able to discuss them. I don't find it possible to believe that Teen Mania has no good intentions; there's simply too much evidence to the contrary, in my opinion. So, as I said before, I don't buy what RA is saying. And the sad fact is, that means we can't have a conversation about the things that really *are* wrong with Teen Mania, because you think *everything* is wrong.

    If, however, that's not what you believe, then your statement of a rapist victim trying to understand the positive aspects of a rapists career doesn't apply. (It's off base anyway, since to fit the scenario, you would have to say the victim is being asked to talk about the positive aspects of the *rape*, not the rapist. Career has nothing to do with it.)

    So, my question: Is that what you believe? (That there is no good intention at Teen Mania?)

    Second, To be more clear, let me address your posted links individually, as I understand them:

    "My Story" is about RA's story.

    "Focusing on the Negative" (the title is actually Response to a Comment) is about "NOTHING makes abuse okay."

    "For Those Who Love Teen Mania" is about pro-TMer's feeling defensive toward the RA stories.

    "How a Pro-TM Alumnus Learned to Listen" is about a pro-TM alumnus learning the value in the RA stories.

    "Good Will Come" is about good happening despite the *wrong* things that Teen Mania did

    "How About EHOAL" is about the wrong things in ESOAL, and how to fix them.

    Using my original criteria, "Write a post… about the things Teen Mania does that are good," not a single one of the articles you presented are about things Teen Mania does that are good.

    Do you understand the difference between an article that happens to say nice things about Teen Mania and an article whose purpose is to discuss the things that Teen Mania does that are good?

    Third, I haven't asked anyone to "focus" on the good things of Teen Mania. It's not that I'm asking this blog to turn into articles of praise for Teen Mania – I'm asking you to honestly answer the question, "Is there anything Teen Mania does that is good," and to give that answer as a post on this blog.

    The Teen Mania people have already answered that question about the RA community in Hayley's story.

    Finally, Eric, your tone seems somewhat dismissive toward my thoughts. Is that intentional? If you'd like, I'll stop responding to your comments.

    Doug: I did as you asked for this comment. The statement I made was just to help you understand that I don't think it's right for people to make statements like the truck-driving one, or the (deleted) one which used profanity. I don't think that any of us need to resort to name calling or mocking, and I'd tell those people that their comments are out of line.

  55. Bathwater Guy (thanks for the handle):

    First, I'm afraid you completely missed the point of my "rape victim" analogy. (Also, by comparing it to alcoholism I wasn't saying that TM leadership is drunk with power. :grin:) The point is that, while the type of victimization varies, any good qualities or good intentions on the part of the abuser are irrelevant to a discussion of the abuse they inflict.

    Second, you just said "about good qualities," which those posts are (acknowledging and discussing the existence of said good qualities). If you wanted a post affirming the good qualities of the abusers, I'll grant you that would be a harder search, for the reasons I've already discussed. Did that debate class cover an informal fallacy called "moving the goalposts"? It's rather annoying.

    Third, if you take the time–as I suggested–to read all the true stories in the archive, you will find that in many of them (not all), the writers, including RA, take pains to mention aspects of Teen Mania that they found positive, at least at the time. That's probably why we're seeming a bit dismissive: You're trying to characterize the site as a whole while demonstrating you haven't done your due diligence.

    Note that I'm not speaking for RA at any point. In fact, I'm not associated with TM in any way; I'm an outside observer who became aware that abuse was occurring at TM (years before this blog started) through hearing several positive firsthand accounts about it. "God used ESOAL to change my life when they made us eat vomit; I'm glad we have such wonderful godly leaders who tell us that to disobey them is to rebel against God" and the like. If I had the inclination (I don't), I could have assembled a collection of positive quotes from TM supporters and leadership that make it look almost as bad as this blog does.

    I believe there are good intentions in Teen Mania. I also believe that good intentions pave the road to hell.

    > "that means we can't have a conversation about the things that really *are* wrong with Teen Mania, because you think *everything* is wrong."

    Of course we could still have that discussion– we'd just have to talk about everything! 😀

    What I expect you're experiencing is some form of the sunk cost fallacy, which makes it very uncomfortable for people to entertain the thought that something they've invested in could be fundamentally broken–and the bigger the investment, the bigger the disconnect. Unfortunately, I do believe that in most cases this is true of Teen Mania.

    I'm very sorry if I'm coming across as dismissive. It's a bit odd for you to complain about that, though, when you're the one who said "I'll never give any seriousness to what you have to say" unless this blog meets your demand of affirming the people who abused them. Just saying.

    If you still think a(nother) post discussing both the good and the bad aspects of HA is that important for this site, why don't you contribute a guest post of your own? I bet RA would be open to publishing it as long as you're honest about your experiences and aren't just out to blindly defend TM's reputation.

    That's quite enough out of me for today, but thanks for taking the time to discuss it.

  56. RA- you want truth; your working for Satan! look at your fruit darling! -Breanna Donahue

  57. The Bathwater Guy | May 3, 2012 at 2:21 am | Reply

    Eric,

    A young man was walking down a sidewalk late one evening, on his way home to his family. Being an observant Jew, he did not cut his payot, but wore it proudly. As he was walking, an older man came from around the corner. The older man did not take kindly to Jews, and began verbally harassing the young boy. As the young boy quickened his pace, the older man began to physically beat him, until the young Jew was left nearly dead alongside the road.

    Another young man was also walking home that night, on the opposite side of the city. But his walk home took him along main through-way which happened to be mostly empty. A truck driver was on his way home, and was finishing a very long day of driving. But because he was eager to get home, he had skipped his mandatory rests and was very tired. The driver fell asleep for just a few moments, and his truck came onto the sidewalk. This young man was also left nearly dead alongside the road.

    Both young men lived, but would be forever affected by that night.

    Which young man was abused?

  58. Bathwater Guy: Both. One through criminal intention and one through criminal negligence.

    (Alternately: Neither, because Superman came in and saved them both. Since we're dealing with fictional scenarios….)

  59. The Bathwater Guy | May 3, 2012 at 4:01 pm | Reply

    Eric,

    And do you think that most people would use the word abuse in that fashion? So that abuse is not just an intentional harmful act, but also a negligent harmful act?

    Meaning, if I were not watching where I was walking carefully and stepped on your foot, I have physically abused you?

    I hope you're not surprised that given where your interpretations lead, people think you're not objective. I don't know anyone who would say that stepping on someone's foot is abuse. I don't know anyone who would say that accidentally hitting someone with a moving vehicle is abuse. (Except you, of course.)

    Thanks for entertaining the discussion. I sincerely hope things work out for you and the RA community, and that they are able to find healing and peace in their lives. You've answered my questions.

  60. Bathwater Guy – I'm not sure your analogy holds if you are comparing TM to the truck driver. A more apt comparison might be a truck driver who claims to be one of the best yet has a serious accident every other month – each time he claims it was the other guy's fault or that he wishes he could take a mulligan. Then he gets behind the wheel again….and does the same thing again.

    In his wake he's left 2 paralyzed guys, a woman with a severe back injury and a couple of dead toddlers.

    And he is still driving.

  61. To take the analogy even further, if I were one of the victims and the driver came to me, apologized and said it would never happen again I would probably be pretty sympathetic.

    But if I found out he already did this to multiple other people…not so much.

  62. @anonymous "However, if you are an intern who is vital to the ministry, they will magically wipe your slate clean. I have seen it done, even to the tune of $4000.00 in one intern's case."

    SO TRUE.

  63. Bathwater Guy:

    > "And do you think that most people would use the word abuse in that fashion? So that abuse is not just an intentional harmful act, but also a negligent harmful act?"

    Here are a few recent news stories:

    Father indicted for negligent abuse in daughter's death
    Sentencing in Felony Negligent Abuse Case
    Clinic, Staff Convicted of Negligent Abuse
    Priest Abuse Verdict: Jury Finds Archdiocese Negligent And Reckless

    Also, legally, child neglect is a form of child abuse. "Harm to a child may or may not be the intended consequence." So yes, that's the way the word really is used by most people. That's why I chose the phrase Criminal negligence, which objectively describes your second illustration.

    So actually, your transparent attempt to trap me proves my point. You're trying to portray us as "seeing everything as abuse," when really you're overlooking things that are legally, factually, and objectively abusive. As I said before, your own investment in Teen Mania has blinded your ability to see abuse objectively.

    I can't help remarking how you suddenly switched your example from "hitting you with a truck and crippling you for life" to "accidentally stepping on your toe." Again, moving the goalposts! Nobody on this site is talking about anything as petty as a stubbed toe. Also, as RA said, we're not talking about a one-time minor injury but a repeated, unrepentant pattern with scores of examples over 18 years. Thus your analogy proves your opinion is prejudiced.

    I have indeed answered your questions, and you've demonstrated that you're disposed to prejudge this site as "not objective" in face of the overwhelming evidence that Teen Mania is genuinely, objectively abusive in all of the senses you give to the word. You're right; I'm not surprised.

    I hope you'll reconsider and stop trying to justify abuse and abusers. God bless.

  64. ishouldcareless | May 3, 2012 at 8:27 pm | Reply

    @ Breanna

    I literally just LOL'd! You're too funny.

  65. "RA- you want truth; your working for Satan! look at your fruit darling! -Breanna Donahue"

    Breanna, it's a shame that your only defense against the truths of TM's abusive ways, is to accuse someone of being in cahoots with Satan.

  66. Doug Duncan | May 5, 2012 at 7:51 pm | Reply

    When I left my pseudo-Christian cult, I wanted to explain to them why I was leaving, what I saw the problems were, and how they could make some changes to move the group in a healthier direction. To this end, I had some conversations with some of the people who were still there, but nothing that we (my wife and I left together) had to say was received. My wife even wrote a book, I Can’t Hear God Anymore: Life in a Dallas Cult, which was highly regarded by many people outside of the group, but nothing could penetrate the dogmatic certainty and ironclad worldview of the people who continued in that group. They were able to simply dismiss all we had to say.
    One of the things I learned from that process was what Jesus meant when he talked about those who have “ears to hear.” While I do believe that there is such a thing as a genuine dialogue where people engage in a cooperative search for truth, I also know that there are conversations where people approach it like it’s a game or a contest, each side alternating with the other in attempts to trump and gainsay. Generally, nothing comes of such conversations. Very rarely does anyone ever say to the person or persons on the other side, “Hey, you’re right and I have been mistaken all this time. I’m switching teams.”
    That is not to say that there is no room to honestly question someone, and even to disagree. Ultimately, it comes down to sincerity vs. gaminess. As long as a participant in the discussion is genuinely trying to understand, that’s great, because he is still trying to connect and he is respecting the person he is speaking to, but once someone starts to make a game out of the conversation they are, ipso facto, denying the humanity of the one with whom they are talking. The person on the other end ceases to be human and is objectified. He is not someone whom you are attempting to love and understand, but he has become, instead, an opponent. Certainly I have been guilty of this myself at times—wanting to triumph, rather than connect.
    It gets difficult sometimes in an environment like this blog, because you have people who are truly making themselves vulnerable, telling their stories which are often filled with real pain and disappointment, and this cries out for human connection. There are also people posting here who are looking for something else—perhaps answers to their own questions, or maybe an opportunity to justify themselves in some stand they have taken. It is hard (for me, anyway) to not judge those people and want to oppose them—thereby becoming guilty of the very thing which I find offensive.

  67. Breanna Donohue – The condescending 'darling' is adorable, but the self righteous tone of your post is otherwise quite unattractive. I'm not even a member of this community (just a casual reader), but your post made it pretty clear to me which of you two would be most likely to be the one working for satan.

  68. Breanna-

    Since when did telling the truth become the work of the Devil?

  69. "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8)

    "And if I am empowered by Satan, what about your own exorcists? They cast out demons, too, so they will condemn you for what you have said." –Jesus (Matthew 12:27)

    "It is enough for the student to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub, how much more the members of his household!" –Jesus (Matthew 10:25)

  70. Anon who keeps getting deleted…..

    I am so glad that you have provided such adequate evidence. That the heart behind this Site is the work of the devil. May I know where you are lord, so that I may come to worship you?

  71. Peace out, Breana

  72. You know RA you blamed Teen Mania in the TV documentary that they stole your 20's, throwing you into depression and guilt etc… But just a thought your giving them your 30's, you are truly consumed by destroying them. Do something that will bring you joy when you are 50, like have kids, get a career or hobby. I don't want to sound rude, just trying to help. I want Teen Mania to be there when my kids grow up!

    And most of the "dirt" you dig up is not dirt, you would find it in most Christian ministries. Truly, I know they are sorry about you and the other stories, there desire is to make you stronger not weaker.

    with love, Breanna Donahue

  73. Breanna – Thank you for making the assumption that I don't have anything in my life that will bring me joy when I'm 50 – and that I don't have a career or any hobbies.

    And I love your defense of Teen Mania – all Christian ministries lie and abuse people, so its ok.

    You keep saying you are done posting here, but then come back. Are you a woman of your word or not?

  74. Sorry that i appear rude, thats not my desire, I am just frustrated bc Teen Mania was honestly used to set my life straight, I was a mess until I met God through that ministry. I want my kids to be around a passionate organization (which is hard to find these days). I KNOW Teen Mania is not perfect, I wanted to leave in the middle of my year. But i stuck it out and I ended up meeting my husband my second year and really growing in wisdom.

    My family is a mess and I thank God i was plucked out and tough right.

    Like I said, I know TM is not perfect, but I also know they have the desire to honor God and do his will. Which is what I want and I want for my kids…

    HONOR GOD AND DO HIS WILL.

    You are a very smart and strong women, and i honor that in you, but it crushes me to see it being used this way. If your attention was directed in marketing for a company or something, you would thrive.

    like i said, i want peace and God's will, I know you do to. just*a*thought
    Breanna

  75. Ok so your biggest offense towards TM is that you feel like they abuse people? The only time I can see that could possibly b e an issue is in ESOAL, they can ring out and they signed up for it!
    I believe young interns, CA or MA may be guilty out of ignorance an d immature zeal, but like Dave said in his email, the heart is to train leaders and they try to choose people who are mature enough not to say hurtful things, but some times they do because they are YOUNG. That's how i learned to be a mentor, i had the forum at TM to teach and lead and the experience tough me. Don't try to destroy a ministry because ignorant and immature words were spoken and hurt people. Over all it is a GREAT ministry!! Dave's heart is to HELP and they are trying to change some things.

    You too will stand naked before God and your heart and words and motives will be seen. TM are trying to change and be better, you keep trying to destroy!! When people go to this site they get bashed if they dont agree with you.

    dictionary def. abuse
    to use wrongly or improperly; misuse: to abuse one's authority.
    2.
    to treat in a harmful, injurious, or offensive way: to abuse a horse; to abuse one's eyesight.
    3.
    to speak insultingly, harshly, and unjustly to or about; revile; malign.

    If there is anyone on here posting against TM and you know me personally from the HA or a mission trip, I would love to talk to you. You know I just want to love and help. This site breaks my heart!!

    Breanna Donahue (Regimbal)

  76. Breana, seriously, have you read anything on this Site at all? Because ESOAL is only a small fraction of the abuse that takes place at TM.

  77. Dumbfounded | May 9, 2012 at 3:46 am | Reply

    Breanna –

    Are you spiritually retarded? Are you dumb? Teen Mania's actions should break your heart. Not this website.

  78. wonder if God allows spray-tanning before we show up naked. I'm terribly pale.

  79. honestly i just started to read the testimony's. (heart is terribly broken, I apologize for my ignorant comments) I will be more sensitive

    Wander- inappropriate

    Dumb- its rude comments like that, that turn people away from this site.

    Breanna

  80. Although I am staring to see where you guys are coming from, I do believe it is totally the wrong approach. For example the name calling that just happened to me!

    Breanna

  81. Breanna – I'm going to have to ban you from the comments. Your statements are not only absurdly ridiculous and ignorant, they are downright offensive and triggering.

  82. Breanna – I'm going to have to ban you from the comments. Your statements are not only absurdly ridiculous and ignorant, they are downright offensive and triggering.

    You are free to come back if you change your mind.

  83. i respect that if you feel you need to do that. like i said, after reading the testimony's i will be more sensitive. I will directly email you if i feel i need to say something.

  84. Doug Duncan | May 9, 2012 at 4:48 am | Reply

    I want to give credit where credit is due, and I think Brianna deserves kudos for her willingness to sign her name to her comments. One of the things that, for me, really reduces the credibility of the pro-TM posters on this sight is their unwillingness to post as anything other than "anonymous."

  85. Thank you Doug, I don't want conflict, I want healing and peace. And I am just a really passionate person in general 🙂 I am going to keep my post private and direct for now on, I really don't want to create pain.

    thanks
    Breanna

  86. Hi,
    I don't chime in to often, but i do read quite a bit. I know there have been some pretty terrible things that have happened to people, myself being one of them. I left teen mania during my second year due to several things, but i am also very thankful for my time there. (i know, sounds weird. I can explain more later if you want) I am right on the fence about my feelings about TM. i just wanted to put it out there that i am not really for or against TM before i say what i wanted to. RA, i am a little frustrated that you are going to ban Breanna from commenting but then said nothing towards the 2 that had very rude comments right after her, such as spritually retarded and the spray tan comment. i know her heart is really for people and she didn't mean to offend or hurt anyone. i hope you will reconsider and maybe consider deleting those comments that were incredible rude to her.

    twyla

  87. Her heart might be "really for people" but she said I work for Satan and has insulted me and everyone who identifies as part of this community. And she continues to email and harass members of this community.

  88. I'm sorry for that. I can see how that is hurtful.I don't think she is trying to harass anyone. I think she just wants to understand what happened, which I think is fair.

    twyla

  89. Thank you, twyla.

    I have tried to dialogue with Breanna, as I'm sure she will tell you. But its important that this site remains a safe place for victims to tell their stories and process their emotions without being accused of working for satan, etc.

  90. Twyla,

    There are others in this community who have tried to dialog with her as well, only to be turned against and told we are being manipulated and so forth.

    So, it isn't as if we have just ignored her.

  91. I never said you were ignoring her, I just said i think she is trying to understand and not harass you ladies. I hope we call all have grace for each other. That's the thing about life, we all have different views and perspectives on things and need to be gracious to one another. That goes for us too, we need to be sensitive to the things you have experienced and how it has affected your lives. I hope not to see the name calling and harsh words anymore. RA, you are right, this is not the place for it. Actually, there should be no room for it anywhere. have a great day!
    twyla

  92. twyla, please feel free to share your TM story anytime

  93. Breanna & twila. I actually know both of you.
    Twila, you were a gi with me and Breanna (if you're still reading this. Yikes, it's true, RA. You prolly shouldn't leave attacking comments up if you're going to delete hers. But do whatchado.) you were my sister core adviser. (though, that doesn't mean much, I never talked to you or your core. I liked to pretend I had a different family core honestly. By the time I got there everyone was so jaded and rude.)
    So- #1, Twyla can fight her own battles. I promise everyone here that. So to Twyla- I know why you left. I personally think TM screwed us all over and choose to blame TM for lying and manipulating our lives to fit their mold.
    I don't blame myself.
    To Breanna-
    Here are some questions for yourself to honestly ask to see whose fighting for the devil.
    Did you EVER lie to any of your interns or friends while at Teen Mania to manipulate them?
    Did you ever think you were a better Christian then anyone else because the other persons actions? (ie- casting first stone.)
    Did you ever think you were a better Christian the someone else because of your own actions? (letting your right hand know what your left hand is doing.)

    You can think on those. I would suggest TM put you in the position to act that way because you probably weren't such a jerk before you got there. And I would assume you hate who you used to be… But can tell you Jesus doesnt. Teen Mania does.

    Also- statements like, "God is going to judge you for your actions here on this website." or whatever, don't work very well when you're dealing with a community that is half athiest/agnostic. That and saying we're performing the devils work. It's laughable when you concider most people, especially Christians arent afraid of the devil.
    The term in itself is pretty ignorent and manipulative.

  94. Shiloh – I've banned Breanna from the blog so if you'd like to dialogue with her further, I suggest you find her on facebook.

  95. hi shiloh, i would love to talk with you more. can you message me on facebook? thanks!

  96. Anon- (I'm assuming Breanna.)
    I didn't even concider finding you on Facebook.
    The Teen Mania struggle is a hard one. A very hard one to work out in our hearts.
    I don't even know you. You need to talk to people you really love and trust. Ask questions and dont take faulty answers.
    It's hard to believe sometimes, but you actually really deserve to know the truth. More then making everyone around you happy.

  97. Hi Shiloh,

    Actually it was me, Twyla. Sorry, I forgot to sign my name 🙂

  98. This is something that bothered me and my parents GREATLY when I was "dismissed" my year for falling behind on my payments to work for the ministry. Despite my staff member supervisor's pleas to the HA (because GE "needed" me), they refused to let me finish out the last TWO weeks of the year. Yes, I had just two weeks left to go before graduation and I was asked to leave campus immediately unless I paid in full 100%. I worked in GE, where summer was our crazy busy time and I had been working 14 to 16 hour days for this ministry and had no time to myself to try to come up with these funds. Which is it, TM? Do you want me to fundraise to pay you so I can work for you, or do you want me to slave away for 16 hours a day for your missions department? Because I can't do both. Regardless, I spent my "free" days on the weekends when I had them walking on foot door to door begging for money in the surrounding towns to pay off my "debt" I owed TM for working for them. These were hot Texas summer days. I was not allowed to take food out of the cafeteria and had to use cash I didn't have to buy food while out fundraising. It was miserable, and I didn't raise all the money I needed, although I managed to raise the majority of it. I was beyond exhausted, and then I was dismissed. I was forced to sign this contract you referenced while sitting alone after hours with a male staff member who made me promise $100 payments every month to begin IMMEDIATELY. Yes, because right after giving every penny to my name to TM to pay for my time spent slaving away for them, I was going to be able to come up with $100 as soon as I left their campus. Ridiculous. When those $100 payments weren't sent (I honestly didn't have the money because I hadn't found a job yet when I returned home) I was sent guilt-inducing e-mails reminding me of my "promise" to pay off my "debt" and citing my integrity and lack thereof by not making these said payments. Give me a break, I was half-dead physically when I left (looking back I'm glad I left two weeks early. I probably avoided getting really sick from serious sleep-deprivation from working so hard for GE and fundraising every spare minute to pay this debt). These harassing e-mails continued until I changed e-mail address. AND a few years later I e-mailed Dave Hasz for help and advice when I hit a low point, and surprisingly he had looked up my intern account and in his reply said I owed the ministry money. Nice, Hasz. Thanks for the "help." So apparently when you contact the ministry after leaving they look you up and check your financial records to try to collect from you. Clearly they do not practice the biblical idea of forgiving the debts they are owed. I understand it takes money to run the mega TM business, but working interns to death in GE in the summers and then having the nerve to send them home for not giving TM enough money is absurd. My parents were enraged. They knew how hard I'd been working and couldn't believe TM had the gull to make me leave just 2 weeks early after the sacrifices I'd made for GE that summer. Of course by that point, GE trips were mostly over and I was expendable again. Just another number that owed them money.

  99. Anonymous – WOW!! No matter how many times I hear that story (and I've heard it SEVERAL times) it never ceases to amaze me how they have the gall to treat people so poorly. Especially people who have served them so much…and for Hasz to bring it up again after so many years is truly unconscionable!

    Its actions like that that show whats really important to TM – its all about the money and the free labor. The well-being of interns be damned.

  100. Anonymous: Unreal. I just hope for TM's sake that they haven't been praying, "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors."

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