Honor Council pt. 2

So, what did the Honor Council decide in our mock case?

In the training videos linked below, you can see their deliberation process. (Thanks to my readers for sending the link to these videos.)

Video 1: The council discusses what rules have been violated and what questions they should ask the defendant. Some examples of questions they would like to ask the intern…

“Why were they sitting so close that he could kiss her?”

“Was she even close to her friend’s brother or was this an excuse?”

“Is this a situation which as soon as she is out of the internship, she is going to start contacting him again?” (this whole comment starts @15:20 and is worth watching)

Initially, they find her guilty of romantic contact, expressing romantic feelings and late repentance.

Video 2: At the beginning of the second video, a voice of reason points out that since the girl pulled away from his kiss, perhaps she is not guilty of romantic contact. This voice is quickly shot down. Although, about 6 minutes later, some members of the council feel that the romantic contact is unclear and that they need clarification of her motives.

“It was a lot of bad decisions that led towards this.”

@ 18:00 Randy Olsson, “Keep in mind this is a serious moment, they have sinned against the Lord, their destiny is being decided, you guys are looking for wisdom from God, its a pretty serious moment.”

Video 3: In this video they pretend to bring in the intern for questioning and then deliberate on the punishment.

Verdict: 60 days probation and a growth plan.

I said in the comments yesterday that I didn’t think any rules were violated, but alot of you seemed to think she would probably be dismissed. (To be fair, people have been dismissed for far less, so I wonder if each Honor Council is different?)

So what do you think about this outcome? Is it fair?

And this begs another question, when is it acceptable to dismiss someone from what is essentially a group of believers trying to grow spiritually?

*Please try to keep from blaming the individuals in this video for their behavior. They are taught to think this way, as many of us were. If you know their names, please do not mention them in the comments. Let’s keep our discussion about the statements they’ve made and not about the individuals themselves.

532 Comments on "Honor Council pt. 2"

  1. I just watched all the videos and really everything about it makes me sick. Actually everything about the Honor Academy makes me want to barf but this is just the icing on the cake.

    She confessed her "sin" so why even mention it further. She recognized that what she did was against the rules and realized it was wrong.

    That should be enough.

    They need to realize how damaging this is to people. I can't imagine the burden of rejection and shame people are getting from the decisions these people make that really should be between the person and God.

    It really does make me sick inside that the leadership there are training people do believe this is the right thing to do. It makes me very sad for them and very sorry for the interns that are being misguided. And VERY sorry for the interns being judged so harshly and for the rejection they probably feel.

    Btw, I dont think I've posted on here yet. But I've been reading for quite awhile but I'm not usually one to get involved in discussions like these. This post just brought out the beast in me.

    I think more than anything it reminded me of how much we need to be praying for all involved in Honor Academy, those who are misguided and those who are the ones doing the misguiding.

  2. mom of ex-intern | February 9, 2010 at 5:35 pm | Reply

    18:00 Randy Olsson, "Keep in mind this is a serious moment, they have sinned against the Lord, their destiny is being decided, you guys are looking for wisdom from God, its a pretty serious moment."

    Words escape me at this moment–I can only cry and am sickened by how my child's life was deliberated like this and judged…and shown no mercy–I'm just stunned and again, so saddened…

    Note Randy's statement…"they have sinned against the LORD"–really? No, they have sinned against HA's rules…

    I am so thankful to Jesus when He hung on the cross and said "It IS Finished!"–for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, but Jesus paid the price so we don't get what we deserve, and when we repent we are forgiven and our sins are separated from us 'as far as the east is from the west'…

    At least in the video the girl gets probation…where she could try to 'prove' her worthiness to stay there…

    I guess the 13 grand we spent was worth it for my child to realize how high, deep and wide is the love and forgiveness of Christ… now that my child is out of that bubble of 'honor' and living in a community of 'broken and forgiven' believers in the real world.

  3. mom of ex-intern | February 9, 2010 at 5:49 pm | Reply

    To Noelle: I was writing my comment when you posted, so I hadn't seen your comment until after I posted:

    "They need to realize how damaging this is to people. I can't imagine the burden of rejection and shame people are getting from the decisions these people make that really should be between the person and God.

    It really does make me sick inside that the leadership there are training people do believe this is the right thing to do. It makes me very sad for them and very sorry for the interns that are being misguided. And VERY sorry for the interns being judged so harshly and for the rejection they probably feel. "

    You are spot-on–I'm not sure they have ANY idea what this does to a young adult–we are living through this grief and pain…thank you for realizing this and please pray for all the dismissed interns as they process their 'sin' and that they let the Lord put together their tattered lives–Thank the Lord my child did not turn away from the Lord–but drew to Him–I'm sure not all of those rejected by the HA do that…

  4. Yeah I was there for maybe five days and chose to leave. My core adviser pretty much told me that I was going out of God's will by choosing to leave. I struggled for so long after I left unsure of whether or not I made the right decision. I couldn't go back to church for awhile because that experience made me generally untrusting toward other Christians and skeptical about any pastor's preaching.

    It's been about a year since that happened and I'm commited to a church and somewhat over my trust issues but my point is, if being there for five days can effect someone as it affected me I cannot comprehend what the people who went to HA for a year and beyond went through after being dismissed or being told that what they're doing is out of God's will.

    I really want to see this deception come to an end. And I guess all we can do is pray..and continue to post these stories on this website to help those who are at the HA and considering going there.

    Ok. I'm done. 🙂

  5. This is so, so sick! But it is like the cult I came from. PLEASE keep up the good work! I pass your blogs on to my other ex-cult friends.

  6. I'm suprised that nobody has attempted to answer this question:

    And this begs another question, when is it acceptable to dismiss someone from what is essentially a group of believers trying to grow spiritually?

    Perhaps this topic deserves its own post…

  7. Good thing Jesus didn't follow the HA model…he wouldn't have any disciples left!

  8. RA – I think the issue of "church" discipline is a pretty hot issue for many groups to handle. It seems clearly prescribed by Paul in specific situations. Now, according to various interpretations and applications of Paul, the options for the modern church seem broad.

    Personally, I believe that in specific cases, the removal of individuals from a fellowship of believers is called for; however, we should likely err on the side of liberalism. Namely, beyond the few cases specifically stated in scripture – unrepentant sexual immorality, aggressive division of the church, and ongoing unrepentant clearly immoral behavior – we are limited.

    Even at the point of what some would call excommunication, the steps that can be taken by the church are limited. Repentance is always the goal, and a sort of Catholic accursed and bound for hell declaration isn't at all biblical.

    Specific application and concepts are broad – so if you'd like to read an argument for an arguably biblical, but practical use of this…check this link.

    http://www.xenos.org/classes/servanthood2/chrchdisc.htm

    But…yes, the HC is so dark and wicked in their use of this spiritual authority that I'm sickened by videos like this. It's appalling.

    Phil – Caleb

  9. This entire thing just baffles me. I want to know where in the Bible it says judge the pants off of people, ESPECIALLY when they repent. Good NIGHT.

    I feel another 'POOPIE HEAD RA' comment coming on, but I'll resist.

    Clearly, Jesus never EVER ever EVER showed mercy when a dirty sinner repented of their sin, and never EVER used the holy spirit to bring about healing. GAHHHHH.

    GAAAAAAAAH.

  10. LEE.

    GAL.

    ISM.

    Does nobody tell people anymore that that's a bad word? Seriously, I grew up in some pretty strict churches and they even told us to watch out for it! Did the word never once cross anyone's mind?

  11. RA-

    My answer is, its never acceptable.

  12. Nunquam Honorablus | February 11, 2010 at 1:12 am | Reply

    Dave Hasz's response: "Don't blame ME if YOU become legalistic!"

    He said this in response to people's claims that TM's rules are legalistic. He's convinced that he's not legalistic at all, therefore these rules that others are "submitting themselves" to aren't either.

    Like one time! He said something along the lines of this: "you're committing to give your 100% at all times. So if it's the day before graduation and we decide to have corporate at five in the morning, then you're committing to be there!"

    THANK YOU SIR MAY I HAVE ANOTHER

  13. I believe it is acceptable to dismiss someone from a group of believers trying to grow spiritually when that person poses a threat to those in the group. For example, a pedophile or pervert poses a clear threat to church members. Maybe there are special groups for such people, but they should be removed from groups where people could be harmed.

    There was a creepy stalker who attended Christian Fellowship meetings at my university. He stalked a girl in the group and made her uncomfortable. He was kicked out of the group. I agree that was fair. He posed a threat to other group members.

    There may be other instances when it is fair to dismiss someone (such as spiritual abusers like David Hasz), but I'm still working this one out.

  14. Eric – sure, they mention it, but always in the context that of course THEY aren't legalistic. And they are very defensive at the accusation (from what I've seen).

    Z – good answer and your last line actually made me laugh. I hadn't thought of it in quite those terms.

  15. why don't they just pin a letter onto her chest for everyone to see. oh yeah, and it could be a shade of red, perhaps scarlet? the other idea is that they could take her out to the back forty, gather some rocks from the surrounding area and throw them at her.

  16. I, too, shall partake in nick-naming people. ex-tmwchngr is now 'Chainer'. Which unfortunately makes him sound like he's a chain smoker, but we'll come up with a better mental connection at some point undetermined in the future.

    So! Chainer, your suggestion would make me laugh a lot harder if it didn't sound like something TM would be eventually capable of doing. ;/

  17. Nunquam Honorablus | February 11, 2010 at 5:35 pm | Reply

    They're not too far away… oftentimes, if a core group struggles with "fear of man", the CA will require them to wear horrific outfits all day for a week. Or wear the exact same outfit, all week.

    Or, for example, one time my CA decided to have us carry around a spork at all times (literally, ALL TIMES; in the shower, during corporate, when we slept, etc). I was out of town when they started this so I came back clueless… haha, and I totally didn't participate.

    Apparently the reason was that we weren't "hungry" enough for God and that was supposed to remind us that we needed to read the Bible more.

    And then we saw the brother core carrying around ziplocks full of sand/dirt… I have no idea what that was about. Haha.

    It's not the same thing, but like I said– they're not too far off.

  18. Nunquam Honorablus | February 11, 2010 at 5:38 pm | Reply

    OH, and I totally forgot:

    When people go down "CA Roads" (the process to stay a second year and become a Core Advisor), they have to wear a red bandana… with their biggest struggle written clearly on it.

    Most people put things like "trust", "insecurity", "love", "vulnerability", etc… and I guess facilitators came up to them to challenge them in those areas.

    I can't believe I forgot about that.

    Wow.

  19. If I ever went down CA Roads, I would totally write "the size of my ass" on my bandana.

  20. @nunquam–

    NO. WAY. no way! that is horrific! I mean, they used to do the bricks–where the CA potentials carried around bricks that represented [i think? i wasn't a CA, haha] the weight of responsibility found in their potential core, and they couldn't go ANYWHERE without it. if they lost it or left it somewhere, it was a HUGE deal. but the bandanas?

    i don't even have words strong enough to describe how absolutely, completely terrible that is.

  21. Nunquam Honorablus | February 11, 2010 at 6:22 pm | Reply

    h: way. And what's the most ridiculous is that at the time I thought it was admirable!

    And yeah, they still did the bricks, but they had the bandana as well. Most people usually tied it around their arm.

    I remember the bricks because my supervisor was going down CA roads, and I hid his brick in the supply closet because I thought I was hilarious.

    Cesna- LOL. How long would it take for you to get kicked out, you Godless heathen? 😉

  22. They'd probably smell the satan on me a mile away. I'd be shot before I took step on campus.

  23. Nunquam Honorablus | February 11, 2010 at 6:35 pm | Reply

    Well, it is in Texas.

  24. Ex-Intern Aug 07 | February 11, 2010 at 6:59 pm | Reply

    ex-tmwchngr – perhaps they should make part of the punishment be that they are made to walk around campus shouting "UNCLEAN" until they leave?

    Nunquam – my January ACA (before I left) was made to carry around a piece of coal and an uncooked egg when he was on the roads.

  25. mom of ex-intern | February 11, 2010 at 8:10 pm | Reply

    You guys are nuts! LOL–and Cesna–ex-tmwchngr should be 'changer' instead of chainer–don't you think?…

    But the 'size of my a**' comment has me ROFLing–you're making my back spasms worse…you Godless heathen….LOL…and my son totally remembers the piece of coal and uncooked egg thing..but said they couldn't tell why they had to carry them…

  26. I'm Texan, and therefore, ignore most 'g's in my words. Chainer it is!

    (also, thank you kindly Mahja, it makes me happy to know I'm good for a lol or two)

  27. mom of ex-intern | February 11, 2010 at 8:39 pm | Reply

    ok Cesna…I guess 'chainer' it is….but please don't call me Mahja–I don't want to be considered a Free Mason, or part of their belief system…I'm in enough trouble being considered a backslidden wicked sinner with a lazy unexcellent sinner of a son…Please call me 'mom'

  28. Oh! Terribly sorry; I had no idea it was an actual word. I was being silly and giving a funny accent to the word 'mom'. Noted~!

  29. Ex-Intern Aug 07 | February 11, 2010 at 8:52 pm | Reply

    Haha! It's not just a Freemason term (for what, i have no idea) but it's also either a sri lankan or nigerian word for "friend"

  30. mom of ex-intern | February 11, 2010 at 9:00 pm | Reply

    007….really? I didn't know that…'friend' isn't bad, but I prefer 'mom'–Mahja is also a town in Pakistan…

  31. Ex-Intern Aug 07 | February 11, 2010 at 10:57 pm | Reply

    Yep you're right about the town in Pakistan. I've worked with quite a few nigerians and sri lankans throughout my employment with the company i'm in, and at each store where they have people from those nations they will call each other "Mahja".
    And Pakistanis will call other guys that they're good friends with "laa laa" which is like a respectful term for an older brother or close friend.

    Okay lesson over – sorry RA, slightly off topic!

  32. Regarding wearing the bandana on the CA Roads bit, what do you want to bet that peoples admission of their biggest struggle isn't even real? I'd put something more socially acceptable if I knew that people were going to read it, particularly at Teen Mania where legalists are bred.

  33. Anon – that was my first thought. How much do you wanna bet that nobody puts "addiction" or "pornography" or "depression"? Those aren't socially acceptable, but they are still very real.

  34. Nunquam Honorablus | February 12, 2010 at 4:13 am | Reply

    Oh, of course not! I'm sure that they must have told them to put something politically correct and pretty.

    Or at least if they struggled with something like "lust", they probably reworded it into something like "identity".

  35. I really don't get the whole "let's advertise our sins" thing. I mean, doesn't love cover a multitude of sins?

    I'm really starting to think TM believes that you can just beat the sin out of someone…only instead of rocks they use corporate exercise and various torture methods at LTEs.

  36. And I think that would be a really great motto for them…

    Come to the Honor Academy and get the sin beat out of you!

  37. RA…and under the new motto they can put: no namby pamby kumbyah Christians need apply….

  38. Curious George | February 12, 2010 at 7:43 am | Reply

    The last few comments confirm my beliefs. The HA seemingly tries to create cookie cutter world changers. Leadership treats Christianity like a math equation or a recipe. If you believe this and do this and follow these rules the end result will be a strong Christian. Everything is so black and white there, but life is rarely black and white. Everyone is so different. You can't tell 2 people to act and live by certain rules and expect them to grow up the same.

    RA – My thought is that its OK to dismiss someone when they're unrepentant and are seriously jeopardizing the safety or spiritual life of others.

  39. @curious george–

    that's a large part of the problem once interns leave the internship–or i know it was for me. everything at TM was so black and white, but when i left–the world wasn't at all–it was very gray. all of a sudden i didn't know how to cope, and nothing made sense anymore. it was a huge identity crisis on multiple fronts.

  40. This makes me SOOOO angry. I'm the wife of an ex-intern and I thank God that he got dismissed. It makes me hurt so bad to know the kind of rejection he endured that is now so deep-rooted in him. I pray that God will deliver anyone who had to go through this from the lies of Satan that have been so strongly ingrained in them. Praise God that He works everything for the good of those who love Him and can bring freedom from this horror. And thank you all for helping me gain insight into my husband's past and his hurting heart.

  41. Curious George | February 12, 2010 at 5:12 pm | Reply

    h. — I agree entirely!

  42. mom of ex-intern | February 17, 2010 at 4:33 am | Reply

    to Wife of ex-intern:

    My heart hurts for you (and your husband) and the fact that he has had to endure this rejection from HA. I join you in prayer for your husband and for God to deliver and heal him completely. Props to you for sticking by him and encouraging and praying for him. And yes, God WILL work everything about this for good because you both love Him and are called according to His Purpose!

  43. This is amazing. Thanks for sharing this.

  44. Haven't read all the comments yet, but I wanted to say this because I will forget-

    So the Honor Council seeks to what God would have them do in this situation. The problem I have with this is that at no point in this training did they mention God, or prayerfully considering the situation, etc. Perhaps it was an oversight because it is a training, but seriously.

  45. WOW. My only connection to this whole thing is a boy(friend) that is currently there. Guess he's a sinner because we went on a date ALONE *gasp* when he came home for Christmas his first year (and all other breaks he has had since then). Sorry, but this Honor Council is a joke. First of all, why doesn't this girl get an advocate? Why is she being accosted from all sides? Even a person up for trial gets a lawyer to defend them.

    Secondly, there is nothing wrong with kissing someone. There is something called self-control- embrace it!

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