For Those Who Love Teen Mania

I intended to post my final thoughts on Ron’s email today, but before I get to that, I’d like to share some thoughts with those of you reading this blog who had a great experience at the Honor Academy and who genuinely love Teen Mania.

I know that it might be hard for you to understand that something you loved so much and is a core part of who you are was actually painful and confusing for so many others. It is only natural to be defensive when people we love are “attacked.” I get that.

But, if you really do love the Honor Academy and want future interns to be able to have the same great experiences you did, wouldn’t you want to be absolutely certain that any and all abusive attitudes and practices are removed from the Honor Academy?

Just because you did not personally experience abuse does not mean it did not happen. There are dozens of abuses documented on this blog in the ‘true stories’ link found in the sidebar to the right as well as in the comments section throughout the blog. Whether or not these abuses occurred cannot be disputed. It is FACT. You do not have to agree with my theology or my methods in order to recognize this abuse. You don’t even have to like me.

Now, whether or not those abuses were intentional and systematic is up for grabs. On that topic, there is room for disagreement among truly sincere people on both sides. But, unless you believe everyone on this site is lying, then you have to concede that true abuse has happened, whether or not anyone meant for it to happen.

The question is, what do you do with that? The way I see it there are 3 options.

1) Sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened.

2) Blame the victims of the abuse for somehow bringing it on themselves.

3) Hold leadership accountable and demand that they fix the situation.

Which will you choose?

392 Comments on "For Those Who Love Teen Mania"

  1. It appears evident that Dave/Ron have a sincere desire in change (through emails) but honestly, offenses and hurts WILL happen.

    I just don't think I'd have enough time to share every hurt I've had on separate blogs. Seems to me that the ones with serious hurts need to get the healing via counselors, pastors (that is what they are there for) rather than 'abusing' others with this stories about leaders that may or may not be true. I am not saying they are false but how can you really be SO sure the interns telling each detail have it all right?

    Also, the one major missing point in all these stories is how they got to that point of abuse…do they have some responsibility in ANY of it? Do they have some confessions to make about how they handled themselves? Or was it 100% Dave and Ron's fault?

    Just gotta watch out for all the intense 'specks' we are seeing in their eyes when "Perhaps" there might be some logs to remove in our own as well.

    I think Dave's comment to you about your responsibility on this blog is HUGE. You will answer to God for what good OR bad this has caused. But, I am sure you already knew that.

    I pray you find your healing somewhere….somehow!

  2. just so RA doesn't have to say it again…RA has processed through…found healing…and returned to help other people who may not have already found it.

    also, it is not necessarily ron/dave who are inflicting each individual hurt. the problem is in the culture they have created…some of it probably unwittingly…unaware of what the outgrowth of particular decisions/policies would be.

    all of the people who suggest that individuals bear some responsibility…in some cases, that might be correct, BUT…the aforementioned culture was one in which leadership was revered and only lip-service was paid to the validity of questioning those over you. 18-19 year olds are rarely self-aware or confident enough to stand up and dissent in that type of environment…so while it may look like "oh so and so allowed him/herself to become a victim…v. sad, but good gravy…get over it already." the problem is more foundational than isolated incidents…and THAT is where dave/ron are being asked to step up and given an account.

  3. So what are you waiting for them to say in this account?

    Is it an I'm sorry?

    Is it a strategic plan to change the culture of TM?

    Or will a "we have taken this feedback and intend to pray over what changes God would have us make.." kind of email?

    Just wondering how you plan to synergize this group (some of which may be here for slandering more than healing) to come to a true place of healing, forgiveness, etc.

  4. Nate Clingman | March 18, 2010 at 1:42 pm | Reply

    I agree with you RA….well put.

    I agree that some people that have been through the Honor Academy have in fact in some way shape or form been "abused", I get that…there is truth behind that. I don't believe it was entirely from or the sole intention of David Hasz, Ron Luce or any other TM leadership but also from peers within the organization. I also get the fact that there will be people that say regardless if it was someone's peer or not, Dave & Ron should be responsible for putting that in them because they direct the ministry…..maybe they should on a case by case basis I agree with but to generally put that solely on them I don't think is accurate. It doesn't matter where you go, college, ministry, workplace…you will always find people doing things differently than what is taught to them…I think that especially happens a lot at TM.

    Here is my thought not necessarily in defense but more so in response. I love TM, my life was completely changed there as I was there for 6 1/2 years. Did I have hard times?, you better believe I did…some of the hardest times in my life were there. Do I hold TM responsible for those times?, in some ways yes. Would I change any of them? absolutely not, it made me who I am today. It took a long time for me to realize that my hope, faith & trust cannot solely be in TM alone but in God…it cannot ever solely be in David Hasz or Ron Luce, it has to be 100% in the Lord…..this is a struggle for most people there as they don't know how and I agree that TM should do the best they can to practically guide students in how to do this….I found that it didn't matter how much TM tried to show me, God had to reveal himself to me for me to really believe….I had to realize that only He could guide me and make my paths straight.

    Part 2 will be added in a second…..

  5. Nate Clingman | March 18, 2010 at 1:43 pm | Reply

    TM is an organization that is growing and will continue to do so, look how far they've come in the past 20 years, I don't think we can simply discredit that even though they may have a long way to go. I do not believe that God is done with this organization as of yet, I think He wants to do great and mighty things as he has done already but I also agree with alot of you that the hearts and minds of the leadership there need to be ready, and that comes through turning their eyes to Him and Him alone, not solely to blogs or to people (God can work through both blogs & people but it can't solely be in that alone). In my final years at TM I saw this realization come to David Hasz more than ever before. I worked with him on a personal level and was continuously inspired by his devotion to the Lord through fasting & prayer. I saw the burden that he carried on his shoulders every single day and witnessed Him fully give it to the Lord to take control. As a staff we would have times together at Dave's house of just crying out to the Lord together for hours. I genuinely belive him when he apologizes in his emails that he had sent, I know that he carries this in his heart.

    Please understand that I am trying to be as eloquent as possible and to give everyone reading this the respect they deserve, please understand that this is not an attack on this blog or any other blog or any one person.

    RA while I understand your purpose behind starting this blog and keeping it up, I personally am a little confused on the direction it really is headed. I believe that there needs to be a group that helps each other in the recovery process of anything, it is definitely needed and can be very beneficial and I think its great you've started that. The problem comes in when that group turns into a bashing or complaint department just for the sake of complaining, do you know what I mean? I am not saying that is your heart at all because i don't know you from anyone, but I can see by alot of the responses from your readers that does SEEM to be a bit of whats happening in some ways…can you control them? no, but this is an outlet that you've created.

    Furthermore, I believe that everyone that has been affected negatively is at a crucial time in their life. You have a great opportunity to see great change happen at TM and in the lives of those that are there right now. Lets face it, TM is not going away anytime soon….we have a choice as alumni to not throw away our experiences and discount them but to really embrace them and bring them forward in a way that TM can practically see what is happening/has happened and do what they can to see change or to see what is working and to continue to build on those things. Things might not happen right away but every great journey starts with a single step (didn't mean to get poetic there ;)).

    RA you have done your part in reaching out to TM, I commend you for that. I also agree that you have put the ball in their court and they might not have taken it, my hope is that now they are listening. Just be careful, even though people commenting might not have the best intentions or go about things in the right way, you will still be held accountable to that as you are inviting it….again that is not meant as an attack in any way shape or form but just something to think about as I'm sure you are already.

    Part 3 in a second….

  6. Nathan Clingman | March 18, 2010 at 1:43 pm | Reply

    In conclusion, there are great opportunities to see change practically happen now through all of you that are hurting to send those things to Dave & Ron personally. Join the alumni association and see real change practically happen while supporting other alumni and joining a family of believers again that may or may not be going through what you are but that share a common bond. and lastly, get on your face daily and ask God to move on your behalf on that campus, in the lives of the leaders there and the lives of the interns there now and in the future…and to ask him to heal your heart and to bring you to a place of peace with Him.

    This is SUPER long and that wasn't my intention but I do hope you all understood my heart here even if it wasn't presented with the best words or whatever, lol :).

    Blessings

    Nate Clingman intern 03

  7. well-written, Nate. I completely agree with you.

  8. The bottom line is Teen Mania needs to stop exploiting young people. Teen Mania needs to get rid of the Staff Associate program. Either pay your people a fair wage, or have them as interns. None of this – in between – you're staff – but you can only afford to live in a Barn. Check out Teen Mania's financial information on guidestar.org. There is no reason for some of those salaries to be that high – if they can't even pay their lower end staff. That probably is my biggest issue – abuses aside.

  9. So, JMillerFam, are you against support groups? That is what this place has become for some, if not all, of us. Sure, there are complaints and moanings, but that is part of the healing process. I graduated in Dec 01 from the HA and have for the past 10 year felt very much alone. Until I receive RA's email I felt alone. I have tried to talk with some of "the line" via the alumni forum, but with all the restrictions placed on what can and cannot be talked about, it wasn't very successful for me. I tried talking to DH via email, and got nowhere. Until I found a group of people who have had similar pains, frustrations, and experiences, I was alone. My Pastor (when I had one) had never heard of TM and in order to understand what I was trying to express, I would have had to summarize an entire year and neither of us had that time. So, I didn't pursue that option.

    So, my question, again, is are you against support groups?

  10. Shannon you and I have had similar convos in the past….of course I am not against support groups…I am not against healing.

    Please lets not divert.

    I am not even saying I am against much of what RA has said. Much of what he says I agree….it's the 'route' that has been taken. I, with love in my heart, just hope he/she knows the responsibility at stake here.

  11. I have a question I'd be curious to know the "TM Party Line" answer to: when Jesus talked about the legalism, spiritual abuse, and hypocrisy of the Pharisees (e.g. Matthew 23, with much stronger terms than I've ever seen here, I might add), was it because He was being bitter and slanderous, bashing and complaining? Or was it justifiable for Him to warn His followers of spiritual danger and try to provoke the Pharisees to repentance? Could such remarks be helpful to those who were victims of Pharisaism, or the Pharisees themselves?

    (Keep in mind that the Pharisees were passionate about following God, living moral and honorable lives, and following biblical principles. Why do you suppose Jesus thought it was OK to criticize them so severely in a public forum?)

    Also, since Jesus publicly called out spiritual abusers when He saw them, is it OK for His followers to copy His example?

  12. First Anonymous, the staff associate program has been gone for 3 years now, I started my staff years at TM as a staff associate and it was super hard, I agree with you….but they did away with it for sure.

    Eric P. I agree with you but I think your reachin a bit

  13. JMillerFam, I am not sure who you are but I don't recall any conversations similar to this one with anyone at the HA. Forgive me for not remembering.

    My comment regarding being against support groups was based on what you said- "Seems to me that the ones with serious hurts need to get the healing via counselors, pastors (that is what they are there for) rather than 'abusing' others with this stories about leaders that may or may not be true."

    I'd rather not assume that you, or anyone else, has been to a support group meeting. During a support group, stories are shared about individuals experiences regarding whatever the support group is based on. Once the story is shared, if the individual is open to it, there is some feedback/support given by other members. Support/feedback may come in the form of sharing a similar experience- to let them know they are not alone, giving suggestions on what has helped them, or simply using phrases such as "I support you."

    You claim that we are "'abusing' others with this stories about leaders that may or may not be true." Can you expound on that?

  14. As it applies to the discussion thread on this post, I'd like to say that I love where you are coming from, Nate and JMiller. In terms of TM "supporters" (and as a TM supporter myself, I don't mean that in a derogatory way), your ideas here are mature and I think wise as an alternative to some of the things this site purports.

    Now, as a comment applying specifically to this post, I'll throw something out to all "TM Lovers", like me, who may be new here or may be hurt or frustrated with RA's message or methods.

    First, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: read the entire blog. If you wish to make a fully-informed decision as to what you believe this site is about, read it. And pay special attention to the comments. If you're honest with yourself, you'll find that RA and the vast majority of commenters here are very respectful and as sincere in their desire for healing as Ron and Dave claim to be.

    Second…remember that the people here may have had vastly different experiences than you did. Deeply hurtful, painful experiences. Anecdotally, I've talked to many people through the years who have had these types of experiences at the hands of TM, or if you want to open this wide up, at the hands of many ministries. We, as Christians, roll over people for "the cause", and we eat their remains. It's what we do. It's a problem.

    This "vastly different" experience is especially true if like me, you come from the pre-Dave Hasz days. For better or for worse, Dave completely changed how the internship functions. The culture has never been the same. That's not a complaint, it's an observation. Point being, us oldies have no idea what these interns in the last 14 years or so have gone through. Good or bad.

    Finally, for anyone suggesting that RA or any of TM's detractors go directly to them…have any of you really, REALLY tried to confront Dave or Ron, or any of TM's leadership head on? Really? How exactly did that turn out? Were they gracious? Probably. Did they listen to you? That's also likely, otherwise you'd be a detractor as well. Did they agree with you and change? That's the least likely of all.

    RA and the people participating on this site believe with conviction that TM and the HA are hurting people. Whether inadvertently or not, they have experienced hurt and want to help others avoid that hurt. And whether you'd like to admit it or not, this blog has drawn more attention and scrutiny to this possible problem than anything has before. One on one conversations hasn't worked. Maybe this will.

    I love TM. I want it to change for the better.

  15. Anon @10:59- How exactly am I "reaching a bit"? Please elaborate.

    Also (pre-emptively) my point is not that HA is in every respect identical to Pharisaism, but that a strongly-worded public expose of spiritual abuse can be an entirely Christlike response to it. It's what Jesus did.

  16. you are right that Jesus openly confronted the Pharisies (spelling not great, lol) however, why did he did that? To bring them to conviction….in what ways do you feel bashing an organization is going to bring them conviction and change? I don't feel that RA is doing that and I don't feel a lot of people on here are but there are a greater amount of people that definitely are and those are the comments that speak the loudest in people. Let me ask you Eric P., what have you done to see change come about in TM other than post on here? Someone wants told me "don't complain about what your willing to tolerate"….that is something I live by but just sitting around talking about it isn't doing something….this is something alot of people in this room could learn.

  17. Dan,

    thanks for your words, I appreciate your thoughts and your heart.

    couple points I wanted to respond on is one that yes I have privately confronted Dave on issues on multiple ocassions and for the most part, yes I did see change in those things……some of them I didn't see change in but in looking back it was a matter of opinion for myself if that makes sense.

    and my other part of the response is what you said at the end: "And whether you'd like to admit it or not, this blog has drawn more attention and scrutiny to this possible problem than anything has before. One on one conversations hasn't worked. Maybe this will.

    I love TM. I want it to change for the better." How is this site helping bring change at TM? It has been around for a while and I'm not confident it is bringing that much site because of the simple fact that while RA and people like yourself have the right ideas for the most part, you have to wade through all the negative, the pessimism and the sarcasm to get to the real heart of what needs to be changed. What are you practically wanting to happen as a result of whats on here? All I can see it doing is either scare people, frustrate them or deter people…now that may be the case that people want to deter people and i can respect that but understand that there could be people walking away from reading this site and things posted here hurt and confused much the same way several of the supporters feel they walk away from TM…..I hope these thoughts make sense to you.

    Again I thank you for your thoughts Dan, i appreciate healthy dialogue when it helps bring change.

    Nate

  18. It is a little frustrating to keep hearing people who disagree with this website to refer to us that are sharing our experiences as "slandering", "gossiping", "bashing", etc. Let's talk about these words.

    Slander- a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report.
    -I don't believe that anyone here has been malicious in the sharing of their stories. I haven't seen anyone threaten to bring TM down, or any other malicious act.
    -It is difficult to say whether those of us that have shared our stories have given any false reports. Memory is a funny thing and well, we all span throughout the years of TM so it is impossible to know for sure. I generally trust people until they show me otherwise.

    Gossip-idle talk or rumor, esp. about the personal or private affairs of others
    -We are reading first hand accounts for the most part, so there is no rumors.
    -We are not discussing the personal or private affairs of anyone other than ourselves. We have questioned other's personal and private affairs.

    Bashing- verbal abuse, as of a group or a nation
    -I challenge you to show verbal abuse ie, name calling. on this blog.

    So, can we please stop using these words to describe what you don't agree with.

    We are having an OPEN DISCUSSION.

  19. "Someone wants told me "don't complain about what your willing to tolerate"….that is something I live by but just sitting around talking about it isn't doing something….this is something a lot of people in this room could learn."

    Change begins with ideas. Ideas are formulated through discussions. Discussions lead to plans. Plans lead to action. Action leads to change.

    We are only in STEP 2, ideas formulated through discussion. We (RA and those that have chosen to) are discussing the experiences we had, not only hear, but with the Board of directors.

    Give it some time and change will come.

  20. BTW, I think this all would be better managed in a forum type situation rather than a blog. It is rather difficult to follow some of the conversations here. Just my thoughts.

  21. There is a lot of talk lately about what this blog is supposed to do, what it does do, what it has the potential to do, etc.

    I think this blog currently serves a number of purposes, including:

    -helping TM & HA alumni sort through their pains and realize which of them were caused by the institution they trusted.

    -creating a healing environment for some of those hurts, or a place for those who have overcome their spiritual abuse to help others who have not.

    -providing real insight into the lives of interns so that perspective newcomers to the internship can get a better idea of what to expect and decide if the HA is really for them.

    And if we're all really lucky, it also has the potential to:

    -get the higher-ups at TM to start noticing that something is wrong, and people really are being hurt at TM.

    -encourage the Board of Directors to put pressure on Ron Luce, Dave Hasz, and others to fix the problems that RA and others on this blog raise.

    None of these things require slander, gossip, or bashing, which is why you see very, very little of that on this blog. Sure, there is the occasional misguided comment from a particularly angry or hostile alumnus, but I hardly ever see that, and I've been reading this blog since it was started.

  22. Liz, I whole heartedly agree! Thank you for your words.

  23. This is the first time in about 6 years that I've read scripture and/or interpretations of said scripture and not felt nauseated. So, for that, thanks RA.

  24. Layne,

    I wanted to personally apologize to you. I recall once we graduated the internship you wrote a blog about ESOAL. I chastised you (confronted, in TM words) on how we made a commitment not to talk about ESOAL outside of the HA. I am truly sorry for that. I had no right to chastise you. I won't make excuses, but I did want to apologize.

  25. Shannon,
    You should make restitution to Layne for that.
    I suggest writing a post on a blog about how awesome Layne is.
    Unsincerely yours,
    me

  26. @Shannon – good idea about forums. RA, I'm sure you have some webbie types who are fans and would love to help you take your site to a more "functional" level in terms of facilitating discussion much easier. There are lots of free options that just take a little bit of know-how and elbow grease, and you'll have something a little bit better than Blogger.

    @Nate – I believe you 100% when you say you've spoken to Dave and seen some change. I've recently spoken to Heath, and he gave me a laundry list of changes that TM's made over the years that all sounded fantastic to me. I know that TM's not completely opposed to change, and let's be honest. My comment about having "no idea" applies to me…I really, honestly, have no idea what the internship is like now. My "opinions" are based on my time as an intern 16 years ago, and my most recent experience serving as a PD for a few years…all prior to 2000. So this is one reason I've been remiss to comment too much on the overall culture of TM, because frankly, I don't know that much.

    My "support" of this site is based entirely on what I've observed as challenging yet healthy discussion. I think that this information should be public, I'm sorry, and maybe that's where I differ from detractors. If people are leaving TM hurt and feeling used, young people considering participation have the right to know that side of the story. IMHO, of course. 😉 Likewise, my "support" of TM staff has nothing to do with their practices or how they run HA. It has to do with knowing them personally to be good people with good hearts.

    My concern, Nate, is that after 20 of involvement with TM in varying capacities, I'm still hearing the same stories over and over and over again. Teen Mania used me. The Honor Academy was traumatic. My marriage almost ended as a result of being on staff. And on and on and on. This site isn't anything new. It's simply bringing public stories and ideas that have been discussed in private as long as I've been affiliated with Teen Mania.

    Teen Mania may have changed some things…maybe even at your suggestion. But apparently, they haven't changed whatever it is that's hurting people. Comparing the hurt people that come out of Teen Mania to Christ's tendency to offend (you haven't done this, but others commenting on this site have) is a gross misinterpretation of scripture. These people here aren't offended because they were challenged. They aren't "hurt" because TM was an appropriate stumbling block. They are injured as a result of the overall culture that the Honor Academy seems to be promoting.

    So exactly what would I have Teen Mania do? I'll tell you. Take this site seriously. Stop saying that the problem is that nobody's willing to "dialogue". This is how people communicate now. Deal with it (TM). Take this seriously and realize that whatever it is you're doing, just because some people have positive experiences (like I did) doesn't mean you're not doing something terribly wrong. Overhaul the program. Change. Not little adjustments like "Okay, we'll give you three strikes now.", but major, overarching change.

    Anyway, a long answer to your question. 🙂 Sorry about that…I'm a writer, so given the chance, I write.

  27. Anon @ 11:36 –

    You say "Jesus confronted the Pharisees to bring them to conviction." Then you say, "In what ways do you feel bashing an organization is going to bring them conviction and change?" Surely the obvious answer is, "More or less the same ways it did when Jesus did it!" 😀 If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gosling. (Seriously, if Matthew 23 doesn't count as "bashing an organization," what on earth does?)

    The fact is, however, that one of the generally recognized marks of spiritual abuse (see here) is an attempt to stifle any criticism, often by invoking shame-laden, manipulative buzzwords such as "bashing," "bitterness," "slander," "complaining," "fault-finding," "touch not God's anointed," etc. etc. My point is simply that publicly and even forcefully pointing out the spiritual failings of a religious group can't be inherently wrong, or else Jesus wouldn't have done it. As Ecclesiastes might have said (but didn't), "There's a time for tact, and there's a time to tell it like it is."

    As to your question "what have you done to see change come about in TM other than post on here"– well, let me ask you, if you think that posting comments alone doesn't help bring about any change, then why are you posting on here? 😉 So I don't see any need for me to go on the defensive, although if I wanted to I could tell you about some very tangible things going back at least five years. (Confidentiality comes into it, however.)

  28. JMillerFam – I find your comments ironic in light of the fact that your profile says "I love people. Learning. Vulnerability. Honesty. Authenticity. Laughter." Wow, really? Coulda fooled me…Maybe you can clarify what you mean by responsibility before God and what is "at stake."

    What am I waiting for Dave and Ron to say? How about real contrition over the pain they've caused? How about a real admission of wrongdoing and an attitude of change? That is what would lead to reconciliation and avoidance of future abuse.
    Nate – I agree with your first comment for the most part. I'm less concerned about the "sin" of complaining vs. the sin of outright abuse. But you knew that already. 😉

    Eric P. – Brilliant analysis as usual – and an aspect of Jesus that is often overlooked or played down.

    Anon – There are definitely some sketchy things going on in terms of labor…wouldn't be suprised if child labor or overtime laws are being violated.

    Dan – I really appreciate your level-headed, well thought out comments and especially the fact that you took the time to read the whole blog before jumping to conclusions. I know its alot to digest, but its crucial to at least read a majority of these posts and comments to get a sense of what is going on here. I think if more TM supporters shared your attitude, good things would happen. I believe its possible that the opinions of pro-TM people carry more weight than those of who have been hurt. So, I hope you will all use your influence wisely.

    Shannon – yes – talking is the starting point. I would hate for it to end there. I've thought about a forum in the past…maybe if enough people show interest and a techie offers to help, that is something we could do.

    Layne – I'm sad to hear that Scripture has been used as a weapon to bludgeon your spirit. That hurts. Please know that that is NOT how God intended it.

    Dan – last comment. SPOT ON.

  29. Shannon,

    That's too funny. Well, thank you for the apology! I do appreciate it. Water under the bridge and all.

  30. last Anon- I would be happy to pay some sort of restitution to Layne if she would like. I can't promise I could write a blog about how great she is since I don't really know it though.

  31. It was just a joke Shannon! I wasn't suggesting that restitution was really needed!

  32. JMillerFam-

    It is an outcry against abusive and manipulative spiritual culture.
    It is a safe environment in which to voice honest feelings, whether or not they be positive or negative.
    It is a place to find comfort, solace, and solidarity.

    It may not be your experience, but it is ours, and we own it.

  33. Anon- I realize that. But, I wanted to make sure that both you and Layne knew that I was willing to do so, even if the situation didn't necessitate it.

  34. It's good that anon was only joking, otherwise they might need to offer restitution to both Shannon and Layne.

  35. Good post. It greives me that people can be so blinded to the pain of others, and have so much pride over getting a friggen ring after one year of internship. :/

    I do have hopes of TM improving it's system to greatly diminish the hurt it dishes out. Just because people have 'good' experiences doesn't mean everyone did…

    lol, I think I'm the only one that's ever name-called on this blog. And that's because I'm quite outspoken and call it as I see it. I am constantly impressed by how people so respectfully put up their stories. I sure know if I had gone to TM, my written in story would have lots of ALL CAPS and choice words to describe some key people. Ha!

    It almost literally causes me pain to see how many people are so quick to assume things about you, RA, just because you're reaching out to those in pain. God forbid you provide a (supposedly –I'm looking at YOU, JMillerFam!-) safe enviornment for people to work through their pain.

  36. A few more options to help you out…

    4) Go to those personally who have offended you and bring it up with them

    5) Write a letter to the leadership of the HA listing evidence, reasons, dates, etc of your abuse.

    6) Go to a professional counselor (if you are in college your school will provide one for free and so will many work places)

    7) Do not supress these feelings and scars, but definately do not dwell on them

    8) Choose more than one option in aiding with your healing

  37. The options I presented are for those who WEREN't hurt….

  38. RA,

    Why are you erasing comments that you do not like? This seems very biased… I have a couple of friends that said you have erased there comments… is this promoting healthy debate?

  39. Why don't you read the comment policy? That will answer your questions.

  40. Anon-

    Here are a few more options that we have discussed on this board for those of us that have been hurt-

    1) Share your story with others so that we can realize that we are not alone and have had similar experiences. Also, so that others can be made aware of the problem.

    2) Email your story to the Board of Directors so that they can address these issues within the HA leadership.

    3) Provide support, encouragement, love, understanding, and prayer for others who are in the same situation through open discussion.

    4) Allow those with differing opinions to comment, berate, and minimize our experiences and claim that we are "weak Christians", "gossiping", "slandering", "bashing" etc. ***

    ***Number 4 is sarcastic and is not something that would bring about the healing of those of that have been wounded. But, it continues to be something that most "TM supporters" (Those that disagree with this site) continue to do rather than offering support, understanding, love, encouragement (Which BTW are all things that Jesus would do according to the Bible).

  41. JmillerFam did a great job of minimizing the pain of the abused and then insulting RA and implying that RA had no right to blog.

    And as to your major missing point-what does it matter how they got there? Most people who have been abused will blame themselves for the actions of others, some to the point of self hatred and even suicide….again, you're minimizing their pain by saying you won't consider it valid until they prove how much they contributed to the abusive situation.

    By this logic, anyone who was abused was probably asking for it anyway….so shame on the abused.

    I say shame on you for covering for abuse!

  42. I think this goes for both sides of the issue. There is a difference between healthy and unhealthy. Even if you don't believe in the Bible, this is good advice all around.

    Ephesians 4 "29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."

  43. Does the comment policy say that scripture is not allowed?

  44. Telling people that TM and the HA have a long history and culture of abuse is not unwholesome talk. It is the truth that might set someone free…

  45. Anon at 5:55pm – I'm not sure if thats a joke or you are trying to make a point or what…but, why don't you read the comment policy for yourself??

    Ephesians 4:29 does not mean you can't say anything negative. Paul and Jesus had harsh words for pharisees and legalists…Let them be accursed, let them castrate themselves, brood of vipers, etc.

    I'm not suggesting you meant it this way – but I will not be silenced by out of context Scriptures.

  46. Liz (Engskow) Davila | March 19, 2010 at 12:16 am | Reply

    So, I found this blog after I received an email from Ron Luce … not sure that was the desired outcome!

    Looking back on my 4+ years at Teen Mania I can see how unhealthy I became as a result of the environment there. I think that this actually gives me more compassion for Ron & Dave because I truly believe they cannot see beyond the world that is Teen Mania.

    I am not shocked by the stories I read on this blog, at all. Since I was "freed" (hee-hee), I would say that the stories of hurt and abuse are actually the norm. What I am surprised at is the responses from Dave and Ron.

    If Dave really did warn RA about their responsibility on this blog and answering to God about the good OR bad it causes … well that is just downright ridiculous and blatant bullying. A perfect example of spiritual abuse.

    For me, the most disturbing part about Ron's letter was in closing when he said that we would all hear from, "The Board". Honestly, I wanted to throw up. If we were all shareholders in a company that would be fine, but coming from someone who is touted as a spiritual leader it just doesn't make sense.

  47. I just wanted to add in here to bring some of the insanity of a few of these comments back to light.

    I honestly was a happy intern. I LIKED the internship. I totally grew in the Lord. I was confused a lot, didn't understand much, but I had an earnest heart to seek God. And no matter where you are, when you seek Him… You find Him. 🙂

    So- I guess when I keep hearing these comments like, "What do you want from the H.A.?"

    I think – I don't actually want ANYTHING from T.M. I don't even care if they change. That's not a battle I want to fight at all. I LIKE Dave and Ron. I do. I think they're men of God. (And I'll just say, I've seen their dark sides) … And I really do LIKE both them. It's obvious they love God and want to honor Him. (honestly… I wouldn't want to be under their leadership again. But I do like them)

    As well as the common comment of – 'This sight can be more damaging than good for some people.'

    I'm going to continue with my stance of –
    'That is a dumb statement.'

    You really do not know what another person is going through when they make their comments. there have been a lot of comments I wished I could delete after I type them.
    ALSO – Part of the process is to be upset! At first most do let their bitterness out. Give some people GRACE for being on a BLOG trying express what they are feeling! And, just in case some didn't take this into consideration – A lot of those Anon's in the beginning who were really upset and left outrageous thoughts, are actually people on the sight now throwing out some mature comments with awesome insight.

    It's almost absurd to say that you Know/think some of the people on this blog are bitter, when there are about 100 different ways to interpret one sentence, as well as 100 different things that could be going on in that persons life. AND! the big one. You don't even know them!
    But my personal testimony is – I found this blog randomly from F.B., read it, FINALLY understood why I was so messed up since I had left T.m. (because a lot of the things they told me weren't true and I believed them) Was REALLY upset for a while, it's a hard thing to live your life out in a certain way, covering up all your pain thinking it's your fault, only to find out – you were actually lied to. You really do have to feel your hurt. And some EXPRESS IT. And they say immature things! Grace kids. Come-on now.

    But then I began to actually get over it. I really did. I felt my pain, realized T.M. had done some pretty bad things to me, that I didn't understand before, nor deserve, and NOW I'm in an indifferent place toward T.M. I'm not upset. I'm not bitter. I'm not angry. In fact. I LOVE them. I really do. (haha… God REALLY loves Dave and Ron.)

    Does this make since? It has been SO HELPFUL to have this blog to read. God really used it in my life. And if you had read my earlier 'Anon' comments, you would have thought I was just bitter, upset and angry. haha. Shocker. I WAS!

    But I'm not now.

    So I guess I have an actual testimony of someone the blog HELPED. If you can get someone who has been reading the blog a few months and is bitter still, and there is zero fruit than you may have some grounds to say that. I haven't seen one.
    So-Kindness… Gentleness… Tenderness… Love… Grace.

  48. Liz,

    I think the part regarding The Board was RL's way, regardless of how ridiculous, of saying that TM will be looking into these matters. Though, I don't believe it for a second at this point.

  49. Shiloh, What you wrote was spot-on! Thank you!

  50. mom of ex-intern | March 19, 2010 at 2:59 am | Reply

    Re-quoting Dan: "So exactly what would I have Teen Mania do? I'll tell you. Take this site seriously. Stop saying that the problem is that nobody's willing to "dialogue". This is how people communicate now. Deal with it (TM). Take this seriously and realize that whatever it is you're doing, just because some people have positive experiences (like I did) doesn't mean you're not doing something terribly wrong. Overhaul the program. Change. Not little adjustments like "Okay, we'll give you three strikes now.", but major, overarching change."

    That was WORTH repeating–esp. to you JMillerFam and Nate–(AND RON, DAVE AND HEATH)–THIS is what we are blogging for. THIS is the kind of dialogue needed and now that RA (and we) have your attention–PLEASE TAKE NOTES AND HEED, and pray, and repent, and pray some more–for God's guidance to get back to the original concept that the Lord gave Ron and Katie–zealously seeking the Lord and spreading the gospel–NOT TEACHING AND FORCING LEGALISM and a works-mentality at the HA. It was all done at the Cross–we cannot earn Jesus' love and acceptance–IT IS ALREADY DONE–In order to continue to raise up leaders in the church (isn't that HAs point?), these young people need to learn that themselves in order to teach and lead and point others to Christ–He gave His life freely so we don't have to suffer–both on the earth and for eternity…

    Our family has dialogued with Heath on our issues with HA–particularly the Honor Council and the dismissal concept/process. We are frustrated in that it appears that Heath listened, but he doesn't seem to 'get' our point–he just really wanted to point out our son's sin and justify his dismissal–we 'get' that he messed up! He was remorseful, repented and turned from his sin and is continuing to grow and walk in the Lord. But what we are wanting to see and have FERVENTLY been praying for is change at the HA–this abuse and lack of grace and mercy needs to stop. HA is REALLY hurting young men and women and NOT teaching the grace, love and mercy of our Lord Jesus. So to all of you listed above and the commenters/detractors of this blog–please understand–I do not post here because I think this is a 'bitchfest' and I want to get in on it–I post because I am grateful to RA for bringing to light the pain that SO many others have experienced and that they are not alone. I post because–yes–it is part of the healing process–AND it HAS finally gotten the attention of leadership and I believe that now, if they are truly caring to hear from alumni "so that each year is progressively better and more improved", as Ron says, then changes can be made.

    I will close with a quote from a previous posting from Caleb-Phil that bears repeating (again): It was the experience of watching many faithful friends come to the HA with genuine faith and leave in shame and heartache that I was convinced of a problem with the organization. Some friends violated rules, others left because of depression and hopelessness, still others toiled in their efforts and finished the HA, only to suffer greatly thereafter. Their failures are not solely the fault of the organization, but surely there is something corrupt about a community that sheds the broken so easily."

    Please also note that I have already written about our concerns to the Board of Directors (and have heard nothing back)–I look forward to the Board's response to all of our letters..

  51. I've probably read every word on this blog and read all of the comments…. It keeps me up too late many nights.

    I've found it refreshing and honest. As a recovering Pharisee myself I'm so excited to see so many people who are experiencing Grace and Freedom that can only come from realizing our good works are filthy rags. While at Teen Mania I had a good experience (overall) but after I left I found that my new faith didn't work in the world beyond the guard booth. In fact it hurt a lot of people. I'm learning to forgive myself for the hurt my legalism caused in the people I loved so much. A legalism I learned only at TM.

    I'm at a place now in my life that I'm not angry at TM anymore but thankful for my time there. But more than anything I'm thankful for a God who loves me beyond my good works or my sins and accept me for who I am. I did NOT learn that at TM.

  52. Watchman Trent | March 19, 2010 at 5:17 am | Reply

    Just in case some of you would be tempted to dismiss RA and this site as a fluke, you should know that I had never heard of this site or anyone on it before Ron Luce’s email this Monday. But I have thought and said the same things almost since the day that I graduated from the HA. I have personally had Heath Stoner tell me that a Scriptural standard “did not apply, on this campus”. I have received Randy’s word that a certain matter was finished only to have it disqualify me from both ACA, and then staying a second year (a blessing in disguise). The “counselor” that they keep on staff Jose Cano, told things to the leadership which were shared in confidence. I want to make it clear that I am not accusing either Dave Hasz or John Bushnell of breaking their word, because to the best of my knowledge they have never broken their word to me. But I am reminded of the story of Father Tilly, a Catholic general in the Thirty Years War. Tilly was besieging the city of Madeburg, and when he took the city his troops ran rampant. They raped, butchered, and committed one of the great atrocities of an atrocity filled war. The story goes that Tilly ran into the city, plucked a baby from his dying mothers arms, and saw that the baby was cared for. Tilly was an honorable man, but a city of 30,000+ people still burned.

  53. I find it amazing (and pretty great) that so many alumni have now found this site due to Ron's email. It's pretty powerful to hear peoples comments and stories and see so many finally be given a voice. It's interesting how when you're in it you always feel like the crazy one… then to see years later there were so many like you, but we never spoke of it.
    RA… you're a rockstar.

  54. I find it kind of entertaining that in an effort to squash this site and its author, Ron has only invited people to come and visit the site. As RA as explained several times, the emails he/she sent out were not to the ENTIRE alumni body. Ron's email on the other had was sent out to a larger audience. So, thank you Ron Luce for making more people aware of a safe site to go to for recovery from the abuse your ministry has done!

  55. Trent,

    You've raised an issue that is close to my heart… the idea of "counselors" and an almost lackadasical okayness with offering information to others which was given in confidence and privacy. I had this happen during my internship. It was heartbreaking to find out that the little "just between us" survey that was given by my counselor during the first weeks at HA (and which I was ridiculously honest on, to the point where I was "red flagged" because I responded to the question "have you ever been attracted to someone of the same gender" with a 'yes' cause, well, Angelina Jolie is totally hot and I thought that's what they meant…not, "have you ever had homosexual thoughts and/or tendancies" or "have you ever physically been with someone of the same sex" or any number of other, more informative ways of stating that question) was shared with not only my CA but my ACA and my second semester CA (and, most likely, more people than that). I was mortified when I found out that so many people I trusted had been watching me for "signs" of homosexuality.

    Valencia (my "counselor"), during one of our oh-so-enlightening conversations, left me bawling in her office (she had spent a good half hour letting me know how disspointing and lacking I was as a human being…the woman hardly knew my name, but felt that God, through prayer, had let her know that I was a complete mess…easier to pray to God about a person than spend time getting to know them face-to-face, I guess), told me I needed to stop crying and get it together, then coldly dismissed me from her cubical because she had another meeting and I'd gone over ten minutes. There are so many names I'd like to call that woman, but I wont because this isn't the place to do so.

    All of that to say that HA cannot leave the emotional well being in the hands of untrained, under-educated individuals who have no place calling themselves "counselors".

    The end. /rant

  56. Trent,

    I believe that Jose Cano is a licensed counselor, which means that you can report him to the licensing board for violation of confidentiality.

    As someone who is in a field (social service) that requires confidentiality, it is taken VERY seriously.

  57. Yes, violating confidentiality is a HUGE deal. I would encourage anyone who has experienced that (with any counselor) to report it.

  58. Layne – that kind of information sharing is classic cult technique. Gathering intel and reporting on the people below you is a HUGE red flag.

  59. wow, i didn't check back this blog in a few days…and didn't realize name-calling was OK. I was simply sharing my thoughts…just like everyone else. The tone was hurtful.

    Honestly, there have been a few friends whose stories I've read and I've been shocked and hurt that they went through that…and am TRULY glad that they are able to have a spot to share it…

    As a daughter of a minister, my direct thought is what if this was my Dad being talked about on a blog that hundreds or even thousands might be reading. Just a thought…as I think about the children of the Luce's or Hasz's….

    I am not opposed AT ALL to vulnerability or healing or even a support group. My ONLY concern was the 'naming' of people who were the 'abusers'…for their protection only. Esp since not every story can be guaranteed as truth or fact by one moderator or by anyone really.

    I really do hope and pray that those who were injured are able to heal and still know God is a God who loves, cares and doesn't expect perfection. I also agree that TM has definite areas to improve in…I have never felt like they had it perfect.

    Just sharing openly…hope that its ok to do that here even if I don't 100% agree with everything in the blog.

  60. JMillerFam-

    And your statement that people who were abused needed to take some of the blame wasn't hurtful?

    Dave and Ron are public leaders, they are to be rebuked publicly if they are unwilling to do so in a private manner (which many indicate that they did try to do this)….please read 1 Timothy 5:19-21 and see that this is EXACTLY what Paul instructs the church to do.

  61. JMillerFam-

    I have a lot of problems with your original post. The mentality that you, as well as some others here, have presented is that those of us that were hurt didn't do anything about during the hurt.

    Take your comment- "Also, the one major missing point in all these stories is how they got to that point of abuse…do they have some responsibility in ANY of it? Do they have some confessions to make about how they handled themselves? Or was it 100% Dave and Ron's fault?"

    Would you blamed someone who has been raped for their rape? Would you expect them to take responsibility for their rape? What about someone who has been physically abused by their spouse?

    The idea that those who have been abused are somewhat responsible for their abuse is what made me live church to begin with.

    My sister was inappropriately touched on a trip home from ATF on the bus. The man was a father, husband, and a friend of mine. He was also a leader in the youth group and worked with the children's ministry. When my church (read:pastor) learned of the situation it split our church apart.

    Some blamed him and wanted him out of the church, or least out of leadership.

    Some blamed my sister. Those that blamed my sister made comments such as "If she wouldn't dress so provocatively this wouldn't have happened."

    It sickens me to think that you can blame someone's dress on why they were abused, violated, etc. It sickens me that ANYONE would try to place responsibility on the victim of abuse as if they were only asking for the abuse to happen.

    NO ONE asked to be abused. No child asks their parents to beat them. No woman asks a man to rape her. No employee asks their boss to harass them sexually.

    You cannot blame or place responsibility on a victim of abuse. That is like abusing them all over again.

  62. live=leave. Sorry, my writing is so off today.

  63. I agree with you 100% about that scenario, Shannon. I guess what I am struggling with here is the word 'abuse' – what constitutes it…and the fine line between 'being offended' and 'being abused'

    Please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying that you or anyone else WAS NEVER abused…just that its a pretty strong word and I'm honestly unfamiliar with the term spiritual abuse. Rape, obviously, is a diff story. I was raped when I was 17. Toughest year of my life next to when I had a 2nd trimester miscarriage.

    I totally get that stuff happens to us and we need to heal. (Please know I mean that with ALL sincerity)

    My concerns were just this and please don't be upset for me having concerns….when you have a blog, you have to take all sides and listen in love….

    Concern #1: Are all stories factual or are there some parts being left out? Technically, anyone could join this blog and say Ron Luce molested them and horribly hurt his reputation when it never happened.

    Concern #2: Names of "abusers" – I know they are in a position of scrutiny…I just struggle with naming them on here. (Don't get all mad at me, just how I feel)

    Concern #3: Making sure this doesn't just bring opposition and a lack of unity rather than the healing that was originally intended.

    Since RA has chosen to remain anonymous, it's hard to 'connect' with them and where their heart is….so just please know I'm not a 'hater' like I obviously seem to many of you. I didn't mean to hurt anyone…just trying to share my feelings which I hope is ok.

  64. JMillerFam-

    Understandable. I think RA has provided some resources that go into a bit more detail on what spiritual abuse is.

    I think that there is a distinct difference between being offended and being abused, spiritually. In taking offense to something, you are saying that you don't like something. Taking offense to something doesn't really hurt you or cause pain. Abuse, on the other hand, hurts you, scars you, and changes you.

    Concern 1: I think it is impossible to determine if all that is being shared are factual. Just like testimonies that TM shares about mission trips and ATFs, there is no way to know 100% that they are completely true. But, you trust that RL and DH wouldn't lie to you. I think the majority of us here trust that most, if not all (excluding me) are Christians and therefore are trustworthy individuals. I am someone that tends to trust someone until they show me otherwise.

    Concern 2: Naming them as in RL and DH or other names? In many ways I find this similar to naming sex offenders on a national registry. I think it protects others from being abused if they know who to look out for. But, I understand your concern.

    Concern 3: I think that is the concern of RA as well. You will have some that desire to just complain and not try to heal or make changes, that can't be prevented. But, I think RA's intentions and others on this blog are to begin the healing… and some are being healed daily.

    I think sharing your feelings is fine and it is good to understand your concerns a bit more. I think if you read more of the blog and comments, including the stories and such, you will see RA's heart a little bit more.

  65. JMillerFam – thanks for coming back to the conversation with a more respectful tone. 🙂

    I think Shannon has answered your concerns well. I would just add to Concern 1 that the stories all share similar threads and patterns, they aren't just about isolated incidents. It's a bit different than a one time accusation of molestation against someone…It's more like the multiple accusations against a Catholic priest (this is an analogy only, not saying there is molestation at the HA!).

    I understand that its hard to hear tone and intention through this medium. If you look at the earliest posts in the recovery category, you'll read about my recovery and gain some insight into where I'm coming from.

    Also, I would consider these 2 my "hallmark" posts which speak to the foundation of my beliefs and motivations.

    http://teenmaniahonoracademy.blogspot.com/2009/12/ladder-on-wrong-wall.html

    http://teenmaniahonoracademy.blogspot.com/2009/12/overcoming-sin-gospel-way.html

  66. While we might have to agree to disagree on the exact definition of spiritual abuse and all…RA, I remember seeing a question from someone on the blog to you regarding whether positive stories about TM are also welcome….I know i saw the question, didnt note your answer to that. I'd be willing to share my story…it's not all butterflies and kittens by any means but it's the truth.

  67. JMillerFam – that is a good question. I'm not sure how helpful a "positive" story would be to the readership here unless you can articulate how you were able to come through unscathed. Were you just lucky or did you somehow intrepret things differently than so many of us? Knowing how you came through it without the abuse might be helpful. Might. At its core, this is a recovery blog, so its a bit unusual to give someone a platform who isn't recovering from anything. If you want to sing TM's praises, you can always submit a story to them for their site. http://www.hastories.com (a sort of rebuttal to this site).

    Personally, I am extremely curious how anyone comes out of there unscathed and non-judgmental.

  68. No desire to sing praises of TM. Honestly, all I can boast in is in how God saved & preserved my life…gave me SO much to grateful for. It's an unusual story – I will email it to you and you can decide.

  69. JMillerFam, thanks for sticking around and clarifying your concerns. It's good to see dialogue happening, even when it's difficult… I'd like to hear your story 🙂

  70. Thanks – I'm definitely for pro-unity here…positive change…ultimately glorifying God in all we say/do. I am interested in seeing what the overall outcome of this is and hope it's one of healing…glad the dialogue is moving in an effective direction all around.

    I think those with a positive (for the most part) experience at TM just found this site shocking. So, it just takes a bit to swallow some of the other experiences that happened to others. It breaks my heart too.

    I just sent my story to RA…will leave it to them to decide if its blog-worthy. 🙂

  71. Yes, it's blog-worthy. 🙂 It might be a couple weeks before you its posted, but you are in the queue!

  72. 🙂

    wow. you are fast.

    has this become your full time job or what? i am trying not to neglect my kids by reading up on this site. 🙂

  73. Ha, good timing I guess. I just got home from church and checked my email. 🙂

  74. I am one of those people who feels incredibly torn about the whole thing. Much like the rest of you, I have my own story to tell, and probably will someday. But I have no desire to dig it all up just yet, though I have revealed parts over the years when I felt it necessary for people to understand the sort of experiences that have made me who I am. I am one of those who by the end of my year understood fully that phrase I heard all the time prior to actually attending the Honor Academy: "It was the worst year of my life. It was the best year of my life." Quite frankly, I have seen most of my experiences as "war stories"- those tales of survival that I tell with pride. I went through Hades at times, and problems developed and matured as a negative result of my darker experiences, yet I have also grown in my faith from these dark times. I am more who I feel I was called to be from being forced to seek the truth on my own, against adversary. What Satan meant for evil, God has turned to good within my own life. It hasn't been easy, but I continue to press on, though I also know Teen Mania would call me one of the fallen because I am far from the model alumnus. I know where I stand with Christ, and as far as I can see that is all that matters. Still, back to what tears me up inside: I am still one of those that will send kids to ATF, and even go myself. I stand and cheer at the HA video. I've encouraged people to go to the HA, though ALWAYS with a warning to guard against certain things, to not expect a bed of roses, to understand that even leaders fail. For I have been in/connected with many ministries, and unfortunately, I see these failings in EVERY SINGLE ONE. Sadly, these problems are in no way exclusive to Teen Mania, and realize it is not the ministry in a whole that is the negative NOR the positive. The fact remains that God used Teen Mania to change my life- ultimately for the better, and I treasure the ministry. Same time do not feel that people should enter it blindly, nor that the abuses should be continued or ignored. And whether you believe in prophecy or not, I am one who has been granted my share of visions and premonitions and the moment I heard about Rachel Barlow, the impression hit me: Teen Mania is about to fall, and they are about to fall hard. I cannot truly explain how I knew that back then, but my heart wept for a new reason then. I had been mourning the abuses of others I have known about while I was still an intern, do not think I never did. As I said, I was one! However, now I was mourning the fall of what was once something great, as I believe it once was and could have continued to be! It was then I mourned the knowledge that change would not be coming, no matter how I wish the main leaders would not ascribe to the influences of bad apples and weak links within, but weed them out instead. I've seen the end, and yes, there is still a change for change, but I stopped hoping long ago, leaving me torn and mourning for both sides of the equation.

  75. PS, I heard one DI (IA) brought to light among the comments. Just a note to say, once she left TMM, I heard of one instance where she apologized for being wrong to a friend of mine. While it does little to correct everything that happened, I've always admired her ability to eventually admit that she could be wrong, and her apology meant the world to me, though she did not wrong me.

    Also, one thing that meant the world to me was another alumnus telling me once, (paraphrased), They say we are all representatives of the ministry, right? Well, then here is this: As a representative of Teen Mania, I apologize to you on our behalf, for everything that you were put through.

    I would like to stand with him and offer that same hand. If I am meant to be a representative of this place, be that a good or a bad thing, I make the choice to be the help that I can. I apologize to anyone and everyone I, and the ministry, have hurt and offended. I am truly sorry for your pain, and would help in any way feasible.

    If that means telling my own story, I will. If it means relinquishing my allegiance, I will. If it means being booted from the Association of the Ring by someone who cannot understand my heart, so be it. I am still an alumnus and blocking me from your forum or events does not change the fact that I graduated. I still took a vow to live my life in service to the members of the Fellowship, and that vow does not change. In the event of a split, my devotion lies with Christ and with those who would NOT excommunicate the others, for THAT goes against the agreement, and in my opinion, THEY were the ones to break the oath, not I.

  76. Shadow – Would that more TM supporters would take your view. Thank you for your support.

  77. recoveringalumni.com does it yet again! Very informative site and a thought-provoking post. Thanks!

  78. I’m gratified by the manner in which recoveringalumni.com deals with this type of subject matter! Usually on point, sometimes polemic, always well-written and also thought-provoking.

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