Conference Call: Beating Your Body

HonorAcademyStory2

Over the next few weeks, we’ll be talking about different aspects of the conference call. Today, let’s look at the “popular” HA teaching – Beat your body and make it your slave.

MY QUESTION: @ 1:18:25 – Through the overuse and misapplication of “Beat your body and make it your slave,” interns are conditioned to believe that physical injuries and suffering = spiritual maturity. Is this a sound theological and medical proposition?

DAVE HASZ’S ANSWER: If somebody actually taught that, that would not be sound and would not be theological. And that does not happen at the Honor Academy and that is not taught at the Honor Academy. I don’t know where that question came from. I have probably said beat your body once in this entire year. I have said on numerous occasions during corporate exercise in the last 2-3 years, “You’re ability to run fast has no relationship to your spiritual maturity. It has absolutely nothing to do with it. They’re not even linked in any way, shape or form.” So I don’t think interns are conditioned to believe that physical injuries and suffering equal spiritual maturity. Its never said, its never taught, its not in any kind of curriculum that we are teaching. Frankly, I don’t even know where that is coming from.

There may have been a season in the past somewhere in the Honor Academy where things were presented in such a way that were not understood, but certainly at corporate exercise that is not happening.

Ron does, in character development, talk about beating your body and making it your slave. In character development he is talking about personal discipline: about getting up when you are supposed to get up, about having your quiet time each day, and I think Paul actually did say beat your body and make it your slave. What Paul is talking about is personal discipline, not talking about actually beating your body. Actually beating your body would be some forms of religion that I don’t think are healthy or right and so they are not taught or propogated at the Honor Academy.

____________________________________________________

Dave said that the link between physical suffering and spiritual maturity is never taught at the HA. Really? What about that little retreat called ESOAL?

Rather than writing a long diatribe, I have a feeling you all can provide even better information about this question than I can. At the HA, did you feel that your physical performance or suffering advanced your spiritual growth (or that a lack of physical performance was detrimental to your walk with God)? This idea can take several different forms:

– Pushing through physical pain/injury so that you can learn to “overcome trials”
– The belief that “pushing yourself” will somehow increase your spiritual stamina
– Treating normal physical needs as if they were an obstacle to overcome through will power (i.e. thinking that sleep is for wimps, you can sleep when you’re dead, you don’t need to take medicine, etc.)
– “Pain is temporary, growth is permanent.”
– “Pain is weakness leaving the body.”

(That image is a screen capture from the current HA website.)

507 Comments on "Conference Call: Beating Your Body"

  1. RA, I love the quote from the HA website–great catch! Wow. One word, "brutally."

  2. But maybe he's just referring to his "personal discipline." He brutally had a quiet time and brutally held the door for his sister core.

  3. nice work RA! keep it coming! love the contradictions coming to surface.

  4. P.S. *sarcasm*

  5. Should we start a betting pool on how long before they remove that "testimony" from their website? I've got dibs on 3pm…

  6. Nunquam Honorablus | July 8, 2010 at 1:55 pm | Reply

    (LOL LONG COMMENT IS LONG)

    RA, I really love this approach. Instead of coming against his contraditions yourself (which you have every right to do anyway), you're allowing others to bring their personal experiences to the table.

    This gives everyone, whether or not they were afflicted with Beat Your Body Syndrome, a chance to chime in for or against Dave's claim. LOVE this.

    As for me, in the class of 2007-2008, this was a CONSTANT. I think the verse itself may have been taught ONCE, but I remember Hasz saying that we should be able to run the entire assigned length of Corporate. Because if a mountain lion were chasing us we wouldn't stop to walk!

    I think from there is when the PEERS ate it up and made it into the monster it became. I honestly don't think a week went by without hearing the words "beat your body!".

    Plus, there were a few big tarp poster/sign things hanging on the fences surrounding the Anvil. On one of those posters was the beat-your-body verse itself, so take that for what it's worth.

  7. Nunquam Honorablus | July 8, 2010 at 2:03 pm | Reply

    PS- I love the little twist of irony by putting the graphic next to Hasz's response. 😉

    I bet it'll be down by noon.

  8. I wouldn't say he's a liar, but I will say I'm impressed how calmly he seems to talk while his pants are on fire.

    In context (1 Corinthians 9), Paul is not talking about "personal discipline" either. He's talking about sublimating our cultural prejudices on non-sinful areas to practice more sensitive evangelism. (Read the whole chapter instead of cherry-picking and you can't miss it.)

    Spot me for 1 PM!

  9. i got dips on 10:30 am

  10. When I did the mountain LTE this verse was chanted for like 8 hours up that mountain in my group. What's more is that they finished the verse (forgive me if i misquote) "…so that after I finish the race, I will not be disqualified from the prize"

    Like, making it to the top of this mountain isn't good enough, finishing isn't good enough, I have to go harder faster better stonger, this shit better HURT. If I were to finish and do it clamly, safely, enjoy the walk up the hill, I will be "disqualified" my efforts will be in vain.

    Even if Hasz isn't the one saying it over and over, it's the culture and atmosphere they encourage and foster that does the majority of the abusing. It's not good enough for him to stick his fingers in his ears and say "lalalala I don't hear that going on! I didn't say that!"

    I say 2pm

  11. 12:10pm cst–it's still there…tick tick tick

  12. Nunquam Honorablus | July 8, 2010 at 5:10 pm | Reply

    OMPH, I lose 🙁

    It's past noon my time and it's still up…

  13. Hmm, maybe our reverse psychology mind tricks are working!

  14. ya know I'm pretty confident they don't have people just sitting at the computer hanging off every word put up on your site….just sayin

  15. shouldcareless | July 8, 2010 at 7:21 pm | Reply

    there were so many other things on that call that were just FALSE. i'm looking forward to refuting more claims.

    also, i remember very clearly chanting the "beat my body" verse the first week during gauntlet, and later on in some of the more physically demanding group activities. all of these specific activities were facilitated by DH.

    the other phrase that stuck, that DH said numerous times during physical activities, is "You're not going to die. You'll pass out before you die, and you'll throw up before you pass out. So you will have to go through a few other steps before death is an option."

    Now tilt your head to the side and say "awwww". so sweet and encouraging, right?

  16. Actually, Anon 1:40pm, I wouldn't put it past them.

  17. I was at the HA in '08-'09 and I have to agree with everything Nunquam Honorablus said.

    I don't think I heard Dave teach it more than a once, but it was constantly said on campus by interns. Having joint problems and not being able to run for long periods of time, I was told by my CA to repeat to myself 'I can beat my body and make it my slave' while I was running to encourage myself to keep running through the pain, through my legs numbing, through pain again, and through vomiting from the pain, and so on and so forth. I was also told on more than one occasion by graduate interns, especially during gauntlet week that "pain is weakness leaving the body".

    I was not the only one running and pushing my body through these conditions. Several of my sisters and I were encouraged and rewarded by our peers and superiors for running our bodies into the ground and made to feel that by doing so we was accomplishing something beneficial to our spiritual growth. In reality it only served to deteriorate my spiritual and physical self.

    I still believe physical discipline is good for the sake of one's health, but a part of discipline is finding a healthy balance between pushing yourself physically and making sure all your physical needs met. That balance is missing from the environment and culture of the HA. If you can't keep up you just need to try harder.

    Whee~ long post is long. Sorry. Fingers wouldn't stop typing… stopping now.

  18. @Shouldcareless – I totally remember DH saying that. Especially on the "Hill" at ESOAL.

    Also, when I left the internship, I kept trying to move at the intense pace that was forced on me at the HA (and I do mean 'forced'. I had SEVERAL meetings with my LP advisor, Dave Hasz, and my Counselor about how the lack of rest was affecting my health, and I was told that this is the way it is at the HA and if I can't hack it then I wasn't submitted to Christ like I should be). My friends were so sick of hearing me say "I'll sleep when I'm dead" and had to really love me enough to confront me on the fact that this mindset is not what Christ intended for his sheep.

  19. Nunquam Honorablus | July 8, 2010 at 7:35 pm | Reply

    YEAAAAH CONFIRMATION

    fitz and I are bros now

    *arm flail*

  20. Anon from 7/8/10 2:33pm | July 8, 2010 at 7:36 pm | Reply

    Just to clarify, the "friends" who helped me by confronting me where the ones from "back home". My other friends at the internship were of the same messed-up mindset as I was.

  21. Before the HA I was a decent athlete and I loved to exercise and train and push my body. I "embraced" the "beat my body" mentality. It was definitely taught by both RL and DH, quoted by everyone, painted in big letters in the weight room, and I'm pretty sure it was one of the scriptures we had to memorize for ESOAL. If not, it was certainly the "motivation" we used to continue.

    All that talk did something inside me. Maybe it was the imagery of that verse. You definitely can't have fun while "beating your body." I was thankfully never physically injured, but the incredible joy I once had doing what I loved was killed.

  22. I never really had a problem with this, personally. I know physical discipline was pushed, but the people around me were pretty cool. And I'm out of shape. I was the fat guy in my core.

    I can totally see how it gets turned into this wacked out "OMG BEAT YOUR BODY TO MAKE IT A SLAVE! PHYSICAL DISCIPLINE 4 EVER!" thing. But if you're asking what happened to me – I'd have to say that I WAS pushed farther than I ever had been physically…but I gotta say: my core was full of awesome guys. We were a small core, and we all liked each other and got along pretty well. They were supportive of me, and if I was the slowest one in the group, they'd encourage me, and push me to give it my all, but they weren't a-holes about it. And if I slowed the group down, then we went slower.

    Gauntlet was physically pretty hard for me (much pain the legs from all the running). But I do remember running with my core…and though I was pushed hard…I think I felt pretty supported by the group. "The group is only as fast as its slowest member" can be misused to shame people…but if it's done right, it can be an incredibly supportive thing.

    When we did the 10K, one of the guys in my core stuck with me thru the whole thing, even though he was in far better shape than me and could've gone much faster with other people (if I recall correctly, he may have had some injury that was healing, so he didnt want to push himself…but even coming back from injury, he couldve gone way faster w/o me).

    So I guess the flip side to the darkness of people taking the whole "BEAT MY BODY" thing waaay too seriously (which DOES happen – I'm not discounting anyone's experiences or excusing leadership for not explicitly clarifying their stance) is that it does provide an opportunity to show love and support.

    So much of it depends on the people you are surrounded with. I'm very grateful that I had the privilege of hanging out for a year with the guys in my core, and for having a good guy as a Core Advisor.

    I've heard/seen what happens when that's not the case, and I know that if it weren't for the people around me being generally awesome folks, it would've been a different year for me.

    Its so much about who is around you. The militant guys who are all about discipline and "pain is just weakness leaving the body" will never have as great a positive impact as the people who temper their discipline with mercy and grace.

    In the end, the ones you care about are not so much the ones who made you run faster, but the ones who were there with you when you needed to walk slower.

    I'm so sorry for those that did not have those people around them. I pray that we can all be those people to others.

  23. mom of ex-intern | July 8, 2010 at 10:16 pm | Reply

    @ Anon at 3:48pm

    "In the end, the ones you care about are not so much the ones who made you run faster, but the ones who were there with you when you needed to walk slower."

    I love that–what great insight for a young man. Awesome, and I'm glad you had a core that supported you. 🙂

  24. I think the quote from the intern that you put on the post with his picture on there is completely unacceptable! If he did not give you permission to use his photo, then you are violating his privacy. If you wanted to use his quote, then that is fine. I agree. But to post his picture on there as well is completely wrong in all ways.

    If he did give your permission, then I would see nothing wrong with it.

  25. I know this was a popular mantra back in my day. It was used for anything that required effort or that wasn't a fun/exciting opportunity.

    With a few people from the last year chiming in, it makes me question the "in the last year" portion. Since, more than likely, those that have been there in the last year are still there or unaware of what exactly they just went through, no one can really comment on how often it was used in the last year.

  26. Nunquam Honorablus | July 8, 2010 at 10:55 pm | Reply

    Anon 5:47- that's, um, a direct screen cap from the HA website, under "donate". It's a public graphic, so I don't see anything wrong with displaying it here.

  27. Nunquam Honorablus | July 8, 2010 at 10:57 pm | Reply

    MY BAD

    It's actually under "contact". Sorry guys!

  28. Nun – its on several pages, actually. No worries.

  29. LOL. Anon @5:47PM Do you really think that RA would go out of her way to find and post a picture of an intern just to quote them? Seriously?

    It can be seen directly on the HA website as with many other quotes.

  30. Hi guys,
    I was definately an intern during 05-06 and yes this was said quite frequently especiall during the three day fasting retreat.. which for a girl who formerly had and eating disorder, it made me pretty sick

    Also I know it was said many times during the corporate exorcise. There were many times they preached that exorcise was directly discipline and discipline to your walk with God. As a matter of fact our weekly requirement sheet had us running quite a bit while I was there.

    And then my ca at the time had us all running constantly.

    The worst part of it all was being a MA in Peru when I went that year alot of my females including me suffered from Altitude sickness. They were told to overcome it through prayer and alot of them ended up so sick we were hospitalized. I found out when I returned home the sickness… that I did not have enough faith to get rid of was indeed an ameoba.

    The worst thing was the required fasting which I had on my eighteenth birthday that year… That was when I knew something was wrong. I understand sacrificing for God, but I never understood the fasts that we were continuosly put on especially since my application listed me as having a former eating disorder.

    Sorry this is so long but I believe this may be one of the first time i've been able to put one of many bad experiences into comprehesible words
    Ashley M. Lipford.(I have a facebook if they wanna confront me i'm not scared anymore)

  31. Nunquam Honorablus | July 9, 2010 at 12:00 am | Reply

    Ashley- your courage is beautiful 🙂 I love how you're able to face what happened to you, but especially your ability to not fear condemnation/confrontation/whathaveyou from peers. That is inspiring.

  32. Update: Face and name now blurred out.

  33. @Anon 5:47 if it's on the internet and does not have a copyright (the photo doesn't, I checked) it's free game. Once you put your self on the internet, you loose 'reasonable' expectation of privacy.

  34. I wonder if the missionaries who showed up in Cambodia with H1N1 were told to just get over it, that sickness is something they just needed to push through.

  35. With all the discussion of it, we're well beyond the point where "fair use" of the image is justified. There's also no expectation of "privacy" once an image and name like that are published. (Do interns have to sign a blanket release that says their name and image can be used by TMM for promotional and other purposes?)

    Here's a screen grab of part of the page to show the quote and the context in which it's used to promote the Honor Academy: http://goo.gl/sowO

  36. I would love to hear some more folks chime in – you might feel like you don't have anything to add, but confirmation that this has happened across the years is helpful to outsiders who might be considering the HA.

  37. I was at the HA at the same time Shannon Kish was there (2000-01), and I can confirm that we heard the old "Beat your body and make it your slave" phrase over and over again. When I say it now, I can't help but say it with my best RL impression – which is akin to an 80s hairband lead vocalist. 🙂 (I can't fight it – I still love that about RL. The screaming + the mullet = classic.)

    Whenever we had to do something physically demanding, we'd chant our mantra "I BEAT my body and make it my SLAVE!" I don't remember who first said it, but it caught on like wildfire and never died down.

  38. I have heard that phrase/scripture used since 94, from the interns on my 1st mission trip up to my year at the HA (97). You have jet lag…I beat my body, sick of PBJ's…I beat my body, locals are rioting while your preforming the drama…I beat my body…this isn't just exclusive to the HA it's used threw out TM.

  39. Mikaela, we (read: me and my circle of friends} also said it during fasting retreats, etc.

  40. Another fun phrase during Vision/Purpose retreats was "Feed your faith, starve your flesh."

  41. Ahhh… I love that I found my journals..

    Vision retreat 01-

    "The key to beating your flesh is telling your flesh what to do and have integrity to do it." ~ Brenda Bertrand

  42. PS I thought this would be interesting to everyone as well as you know that ESOAL is based on Navy Seal Training… I am actually in the Navy. I am not a seal by anymeans, but I do see seals on my training base everyday.. these are the few that go through months and months and months of training before they ever go to coronato to face the bell, and also after a seal has rung the bell, there is a very distinct debriefing to keep them mentally stable.
    Because ringing the bell does seem to caise a mental and emotional depression among many of the "failed" Seals.
    Obviously if the Navy Seals one of the toughest military organizations in the world trains them for months how can you ask someone to go through with absolutely no training. Also the Navy Seals keep a corpsman on site during all training exorcises, which is obvioulsy not the case during my ESOAL experience where i became so dehydrated i continuously threw up and then had to walk by myself to the shower where i passed out and threw up again… I strongly do not think that Non military members should be conducting military drills.
    I went through bootcamp and never expereinced anything as awful as ESOAL was for me…

  43. Josh ex-intern 00-01 | July 9, 2010 at 11:34 am | Reply

    I was there with Shannon and Mikaela. I've also posted a few times on this particular thing, but none went through.

    I remember this being used almost daily from Aug 00 to June 01, when I was dismissed. I might have even said it myself during one of my long shifts on security, like during ESOAL weekends when I would be up from Friday 0600 till Monday 0600 working security.

    When I was dismissed, I went home, and would hear my sister, an Alumnus from years prior, repeat the same mantra. I think I'd even heard her say that she said it after she blew her knee out during Gaunlet Week, and was in the alternative exercise group. As well as heard her say it just a few years ago in correlation with having had surgery after a niece or nephew was born.

    This mantra is DEFINITELY something that sticks out in your mind, and wasn't just said once or twice by HA Staffers, but almost on a constant basis, ie ESOAL, Fasting Retreat, Unreached People's Retreat aka World Awarness for the newer interns, etc.

  44. IlvJes7 – I'm a Marine, and I couldn't agree more. In fact, it's my #1 reason for not liking ESOAL. I just don't think that Dave or anybody else down there is even remotely qualified to safely conduct military-style training. And actually, I see no benefit to that type of training to civilians. The emotional tearing down is actually the most dangerous part of boot camp or BUD/S or any other intensive school in the military, and it's an art that's been perfected over centuries…millennia, actually, since that style of training goes back as far as the Spartans.

    The point is, every single drill instructor, every single drill sergeant, every single chief at BUD/S has been through what they're putting their charges through. I know Dave's doing ESOAL this year, but I'm sorry, going through a couple of days of torture does not qualify you to safely train others in this manner.

    Just my opinion, but still. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

  45. Picture Perfect | July 9, 2010 at 6:47 pm | Reply

    I think we would be hard pressed to find an intern or an alumnus that hasn't recited that scripture many times. Which is "wacked" because I have friends who have been Christians for way longer than myself who know that scripture but don't find it the piece of the Word that they focus on much.

    For me it is a haunting phrase now. The minute I hear a preacher or another Christian speak of this scripture I either block it out or become defensive to make sure that it isn't being used incorrectly. Really, that's a very scary thing to me because I love God's Word very much. I love to hear it and recite it and speak it as much as I can. I believe and put my faith in the Word. Yet, the minute that scripture is used I am defensive about it.

    I do comprehend that this is the result: 1. of how I've dealt with the stretching of this scripture in the way it was taught at the HA. 2. the damage of this particular scripture being used out of context has had on my life.

    Just my thoughts on this.

  46. Picture Perfect | July 9, 2010 at 6:48 pm | Reply

    I think we would be hard pressed to find an intern or an alumnus that hasn't recited that scripture many times. Which is "wacked" because I have friends who have been Christians for way longer than myself who know that scripture but don't find it the piece of the Word that they focus on much.

    For me it is a haunting phrase now. The minute I hear a preacher or another Christian speak of this scripture I either block it out or become defensive to make sure that it isn't being used incorrectly. Really, that's a very scary thing to me because I love God's Word very much. I love to hear it and recite it and speak it as much as I can. I believe and put my faith in the Word. Yet, the minute that scripture is used I am defensive about it.

    I do comprehend that this is the result: 1. of how I've dealt with the stretching of this scripture in the way it was taught at the HA. 2. the damage of this particular scripture being used out of context has had on my life.

    Just my thoughts on this.

  47. It's cool RA blurred out the face and got rid of the name, especially since there is no reason to. If it's on the Internet, ALREADY ON ANOTHER WEBSITE, then… what the heck? It hasn't been altered in any way, I think the person freaking about it is really grasping at straws for something to whine about.

    ANYway.

    The main reason I myself never attended HA was the 5am corporate and Gauntlet. 😛 I literally remember telling the person on the phone "Ehhhhh that seems over the top, honestly" and she replied "But our body is our temple, and we need to take care of it!" I said then I should be allowed to exercise when I want, and it doesn't matter if I do it at five in the morning or five at night.

    Being a lazy ass saved my life!

  48. its funny you say that Cesna…my initial reaction in reading this entire blog entry was that this is a really silly topic to whine about. Seems like a silly topic on TM's part as well as ours

  49. There is nothing silly about telling people that their spiritual worth is based on their physical performance. Its wrong, spiritually abusive, and against the very nature of Jesus.

  50. I second what RA says. There is NOTHING silly or insignificant with treating broken bones and tendons and hypothermia like a spiritual trophy. Even if Dave himself didn't say 'LOL, HIGH FIVE, YOU BROKE A BONE!', he created an environment that encouraged that mindset, and hasn't rectified the problem. Jesus wasn't a masochist, and He doesn't want you to be, either.

    It's being covered because there's hurt involved, and it's two steps away from being ENCOURAGED. How is that a silly topic? It's very legitimate and of great concern.

  51. Old School Betty | July 9, 2010 at 9:18 pm | Reply

    Anon at 2:59….i do not think it is silly, when as a triathlete in training I feel like a complete and total failure when I don't win every single time or when my body gives out on me physically. It is a Scripture that has been used and abused. Period.

  52. The reason to blur out the image and name is to protect the person from further harm when he finally comes to the conclusion that what he said is CRAP. RA doesn't want to be a part of the hurt of that individual

    Anon

  53. Old School Betty | July 10, 2010 at 1:59 am | Reply

    Here it is from the New Living Translation. I discipline my body like an athlete, training it to do what it should. Otherwise, I fear that after preaching to others I myself might be disqualified.

    I can't help but think about my triathlete buddies. As much as they work out, even they know the benefits of REST so as not to physically burn themselves out. They barely workout the week before a big race so they are in optimal peak condition.

    I need a nap.

  54. Shannon Kish said…
    LOL. Anon @5:47PM Do you really think that RA would go out of her way to find and post a picture of an intern just to quote them? Seriously?

    It can be seen directly on the HA website as with many other quotes.

    I am Anon at 547 ( I think that is the time) about the photo.

    No, I do not think RA would go out of her way to do so, and she did post that she retrieved it from the HA website. So, you really don't have to snap at such a comment. I was just making a mere suggesting to protect that individual. That is what we are doing here, right? Well, looking at my comment, I didn't suggest. So, I apologize for that. I should have just suggested blurring the image and the name instead of saying it was inappropiate. So, RA. My apology goes out to you.

    I only said that because obviously he gave the Honor Academy permission to use his photo and his quote on their website. Their website is copyright protected, therefore makes the photo copyrighted.

    I absolutely don't see nothing wrong with posting the quote on here, but I think it was appropriate to blur his image.

    I think the quote went well with the topic, but I didn't think it was wise enough to include his photo. So thank you for blurring it. I know it sounds silly, but you are protecting him.

  55. truthinlovess | July 11, 2010 at 5:54 am | Reply

    Copyrights are only issued to ORIGINAL creators of WORKS. Please see link for quick explanation.
    http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
    (FYI, I have to deal with this quite frequently)
    But that was very nice of you to blur the pic.

    Back to the real subject. I do recall icing my knees daily just to be able to walk properly: until I gave my CA a mouthful.(& I left my second year with severe anemia).
    And that verse still pops into my head. I had a friend who was quite fatigued with exercise & the whole TM regimin of work, work,work. They (interns) told her to have faith, she just didn't have enough to get her through the day. When she went home for Christmas she told her mother who made her go to the Dr. IT WAS CANCER!!!!! Not a lack of faith.

    Please current TM people. If something feels out of the ordinary, if pain or fatigue persists, see a doctor. You know your body better than anyone else and its the only one you have, so take care of it.

  56. truthinloveess – please contact me. I would love to get your friend's story.

  57. Also, it is totally legal to reproduce copyrighted material within the context of a "review or critical examination" such as this blog post– it easily falls within Fair Use.

    However, I second the kudos to RA for choosing to blur the person's identity. It's the indoctrination talking anyway.

  58. Intern 2000/01 of the August variety
    Lisa, I feel you've struck the nail on the head! Eurika!

    "Even if Hasz isn't the one saying it over and over, it's the culture and atmosphere they encourage and foster that does the majority of the abusing. It's not good enough for him to stick his fingers in his ears and say "lalalala I don't hear that going on! I didn't say that!" "

    Dave and Ron seems to safely hide behind eloquent and slippery words, Perhaps they should look into governmental politics…

    They cast their vision which experiences entropy as it hits the ears of those many who are dead to love and alive to religious rule and life style. These people, in turn, redundantly shovel their interpretation of the Ron/Dave speak to others who understand more of a balanced view. Inevitably the foundation to these balanced views are constantly challenged and chipped away at by these people. Thats tough! I experienced this first hand on many occasions.
    Ron/Dave are engaging in a dangerous practice; allowing their words to be digested by many and regurgitated to others in whatever manor they care to.
    While I was at the HA I heard the "beat your body" " don't be disqualified from the prize" "you will pass out before you die" Over and over and over….Not from the mouth of Ron/Dave more than a couple times. I heard this from others who said these words with a hidden dagger that cut deep. A hidden prod that spurred us on into dangerous territory and you all know better than most where that territory lead to. Pain, confusion, injury (spiritual, physical, mental)

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