Conference Call Audio

If you missed the conference call last night, you can click here for the audio. The first 90 minutes or so was a monologue from Dave answering questions that were emailed in. The last part is a live Q & A. If you’re interested to hear my interaction with Dave, it starts around 1:58. I will have my thoughts up tomorrow. Share yours here or at the Recovering Alumni forum.

477 Comments on "Conference Call Audio"

  1. Looking forward to hearing everyone's perspective.

  2. I have been reading and posting on this site for many months now. Thank you for posting the link to the conference call. It was insightful. I was glad to hear about some of the changes…namely the driving and anonymous survey/hotline etc. I think those were important changes. I think many of the hurts that us older alumni experienced could have been acknowledged and changed if those practices of staff accountability had been in practice during our HA year.

    I have appreciated the way that RA has approached issues on this site, but I was disappointed and surprised by the tone RA took on the conference call. I recognize that she has heard many many stories and is hurting herself, but she came across in an attacking manner and was immediately on the defense. I would hope that people listening do not write off the stories and the issues brought up on this site due to the tone of that portion of the conference call.

  3. If you are only trying to help people recover, then why all of the personal attacks and hate? It was obvious in your voice last night.

    Blessed are the peace makers. Your tone and aggressive manner was not peaceful. I am further removed from this situation, but I believe that peace and healing can take place.

    I don't think that is what you really want. You seem to be on a campaign or mission against Mr. Hasz and/or TM.

    If you truly wanted healing and peace your attention would shift away from the hurt and to the healer.

    If you really want to help those hurt, stop throwing accusations and darts and help be a mediator.

    The Bible does predict in the last days there will be unreasonable people. I don't want to see anyone fall into this category. Please don't be one of those people.

    There are hurt people all around us. There is no reason to cause more hurts or exploit those that are. Please consider these words.

  4. If RA sincerely believes that Mr. Hasz is responsible for many/most of the hurts that have been allowed to take place at Teen Mania, then it is entirely appropriate that she would seek to have him removed from his position. This is not a "campaign or mission" against him. Allowing it to be construed in that way is just an effort made to detract from the real issues at hand.

  5. Looking for blame and passing blame. We all make decisions everyday. Some are right and other not.

    Mr. Hasz was pretty clear last night that he has made mistakes. He also took responsibility and asked for forgiveness.

    He also said his mistakes weren't illegal or immoral.

    Is there not room for forgiveness for him? That sounds like the religious leaders in the NT.

    If people aren't given room to improve and recover, then how will they learn from their mistakes?

    The gospel you preach is good enough for your bloggers, but not good enough for people you pick out. This sounds a bit hypocritical.

  6. Anon at 10:01: Really? You clearly haven't been reading this blog for very long.

    RA was tame compared to how I would have responded. RA has listened with a open heart/mind and a kind spirit to ALL of us that have posted stories, regardless of what those stories contained. She has been an advocate for those of us unable to advocate for ourselves.

    Had I been the one to respond and ask Mr. Hasz those questions, I would have come off much more harsh than she did.

    Part of this website is about seeking to ensure that others are not hurt in the same manner that we were hurt. We can't change the past and change how we were hurt, but we can fight to ensure that no others are hurt in the same way we were.

    I think it is our duty to do so. I think Jesus did so for the Woman at the Well and for countless others. Jesus didn't just focus on making sure that they were healed, he also confronted those that hurt them. That is what we are trying to accomplish

  7. Like it or not. David Hasz is a part of the body of Christ. You are hurting your own members when you personally attack him or the ministry God called him to do.

    It isn't proper to for one member to attack another. This entire situation is a stink to God.

    DH sounded sincere last night. He answered every question immediately and without hesitation. Even when some callers tried a gotcha method, he remained at peace and answered them.

    I think your efforts would be better served to heal and move forward in your own life.

    If this place is so evil, I would try to get as far away as possible. I would be embarrassed that you were ever associated with them and never mention it again.

  8. I have read it enough to see what is going on.

    Kate's story is very sad. I simply think it is a stretch to attach blame to DH or TM for her situation.

    Another story used the words, felt like rape. To compare an actual rape victim to someone 'fealing like rape' is disrespectful and insulting to those who have actually faced this tragedy.

    It's clear to me that the stories are be compiled in an effort to get back. I think there is an element of healing, but the heart shines through. Especially after hearing the caller last night. She was full of resentment and anger. You could hear it in her voice. Poisonous.

    I feel bad for her.

  9. Why are you people hiding in the shadows. If you are so bold to make accusations, be bold enough to own up to them.

    You want to name others, yet you yourselves don't want to be named. Yes I am anonymous and that doesn't bring any less validity to my point.

    I am not the one making accusations and on this trek toward TM.

  10. Nunquam Honorablus | June 29, 2010 at 3:40 pm | Reply

    ^ If your point isn't invalidated by your anonymity, then neither is ours.

  11. I'm proud of you, RA! You stood up for all of us last night. You were passionate and you stood your ground! AND you called the most self-righteous man on the planet a liar! Lol. I'm still amused by that one. Here he has built a life on honor/self-righteousness and you called him a liar! I could hear the sting of indignation in his voice.

  12. Nunquam – only that people casting stones shouldn't be ashamed of throwing them.

  13. When I'm passionate about something my emotions get involved! Give me a break. That's NORMAL people.

    If somebody speaks against my husband I get angry, that's normal. If somebody lies to me, I get angry. That's normal. If somebody makes a pattern of hurting many people that I love, that makes me really angry. RA is woman with incredible compassion towards the suffering and she has seen needless suffering and a lot of discrepancies in Dave's life, it's only normal to be passionate about this.

    Let those of you who could experience a personal affront to yourself and the ones you love happen over and over again and have no amount of anger in your voice. . . .you can throw the first stone.

  14. Stones are being flung all over the place. Truth is, everybody recovers from a cult at a different pace and some never do.

  15. Shannon…I thought you were supposed to be Atheist?

    If so, why do you continue to use stories and verses from the Bible…
    Anything about Jesus or God should clearly not be in your vocabulary.

    Just sayin…

  16. Lol. This is ridiculous. Anons telling those of us who are anon to stop being Anon. LOL.

    Those telling us that DH is a part of the body and we shouldn't attack, yet they attack us.

    Pot, meet kettle. He is also black.

  17. anon at 10:54 being an atheist doesn't meant that I am ignorant to the teachings of the Bible. I was a Christian for several years and have my minor in Christian Studies.

  18. Um…Pot, meet kettle…Really?

  19. Well, you can correct me if I am wrong, but I thought an atheist was one that has no belief in any God…
    So…being an atheist….shouldn't you count the stories that are in the Bible, stories that are untrue and have no value to them?

  20. As an intern, when I was wronged by two staff members my first thought wasn't "It is Dave's fault!" I still don't believe it is. If I had known about one situation sooner (slander about myself to fellow interns by a staff member) I would have brought it up to leadership. It was wrong of that person to speak ill of me; not to mention she didn't even know, nor did she ask, the situation. Personally I feel people make mistakes and instead of taking it up with that person whether it be an intern, alumni or staff, we are looking to fry Dave. He's not responsible for the advisor who didn't help me when I really needed it. If I had brought it to his attention I without a doubt believe he would have handled it, but I didn't. It's my fault for accepting the situation. Despite my personal experience with the two staff members and feeling like the walking wounded for a period, I did receive healing from the situation.

    I know many have been hurt in different ways. My question is, now what? Do we nurse the hurts or allow them to heal? How do we really think healing will come? How long is to long to be apart of the walking wounded? I'm not asking these questions to fight. I really want to know how many people want healing and how many say they want it, but perhaps unknowing to them enjoy it. Please hear me out. My grandmother is a walking wounded. She had a rough childhood that included the death of a baby sister, living full time in tents, her mom divorced twice, 11 other brothers and sisters, forced to get married at 15 which ended in her divorcing and remarrying at 16. She had her first child, by her first husband after the divorce, but before she married my grandfather. With a hard beginning one thing she has learned well is how to be a walking wounded. She has riffs all over her family and three years ago brought it into my family. Now her eight children who live close together are spread apart in their hearts. Dare they talk and try to get along my grandma rehashes her hurts and tries to pull them to one side or the other. It's a sad, sad cycle which she doesn't seem to know how to break. It has become life to her. She feeds off being a walking wounded. With that in mind I'm curious how many enjoy it and really aren't seeking healing and how many are tired of it and wants healing?

  21. Agnostic or Atheist – there is a BIG difference and most people don't even know what it is. (((((I see google in your near future)))))

  22. I am an ATHEIST.

    Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the fact that when speaking to Christians, Atheists tend to use the very thing that Christian believe in.

    I don't go to my 3 year old niece and use big words that she can't understand. I get on her level. The same goes for speaking with Christians. I use biblical references because it is what Christians understand.

    I do not believe in a god and believe that the bible, as with other "holy" books are written by men and women and are subject to interpretation.

    Despite all that, this isn't the place to discuss my beliefs or lack there of.

  23. Well, you keep reminding us how much of an atheist you are…If this is not the place to discuss your beliefs, then you could start by stop bringing the subject of how atheist you are to us….

  24. Jennifer,
    What does healing mean for you? To continue to allow abusers to walk in places of authority over impressionable young people?

    I'm sorry that you were unwilling to address the issues you had with these staff members with David in an appropriate way. That may be something that you will have to answer for, as it could have easily allowed for other interns to suffer. In this way… you weren't the bigger person. You were simply an enabler.

    If you spend much time on this site, you'll quickly realize that many people tried to handle this in the Biblical way (ie, confronting the abuser, taking their concerns to DH etc) only to be ignored and/or belittled. I'm sorry for what your grandmother suffered, but due to the MANY ex-interns who, unlike you, were willing to expose themselves to ridicule in the name of JUSTICE, her story has no bearing on this matter.

  25. I was the first anonymous commenter (10:01).

    Shannon, actually I have been reading this blog for a very long time. I have read every post (and about 95% of the comments) and have read the forum as well.

    I am not saying what RA is doing is wrong. I am thankful that she is so compassionate, caring, knowledgeable, and an advocate for those that were hurt, and a voice of caution for those to come. I recognize that she cares deeply for the people that have voiced their stories and for all the past, current, and future interns.

    The point I tried to make in my original post was that I think she may have come across very angry, defensive, and in an attacking manner to many people from the moment she identified herself. I realize that she most likely had a lot of passion and emotion listening to the call, but this was not the first time she had communicated with Dave. I was personally very surprised with how she talked to him. Believe me, I have spoken with many people who have hurt me or who have been rude to me. It is not easy to talk in a calm and respectful manner. BUT…. if that conversation is conducted in a peaceful way both parties are normally able to get their point across and be heard. I'm also concerned that other alumni and staff may have been turned off to the issues brought up on this site, because they will say she she sounded "bitter," disrespectful, etc.

    I do believe that we are suppose to help others heal, and to confront the person/people/institution that hurt us. I just believe that the confrontation must be done in a respectful manner. I understand that it is extremely difficult to be respectful to someone that you feel has hurt you or disrespected you and others, but often times (fairly or unfairly) the validity of what you are saying is diminished by how you say it.

  26. Nunquam Honorablus | June 29, 2010 at 4:15 pm | Reply

    I don't think here is the place to act out what you learned from Ravi through Apologetics class, friends. :/

    I think Shannon's doing a great job of trying to be relatable in her debate and coming down to our level. Her stance should NOT be debunked simply because she does not believe in a Higher Being.

  27. Anon… I've read the Qur'an. When I am in conversation with people of the Islamic faith, I am constantly referencing their literary standard of belief. It is entirely appropriate for Shannon, even as an atheist – to use our scripture in an effort to bring Christians who have abused or misrepresented the name of Christ to ACCOUNT for their actions.

  28. Who has given her authority to bring people to account for their actions.

    I think that is the biggest thing about this site. All of the people have opinions. They think they are more important or are in a place of authority to correct or bring instruction.

    Allow God to be the judge. You just stay humble and holy.

  29. Again, is this blog for you? Are you seeking healing and peace because of the experiences you had at TM? No? Then why are you here?

    The people here do not need more of your abuse.

    "I know many have been hurt in different ways. My question is, now what?"

    This _is_ the "now what?" This is the seeking, the need for a group of people to reconcile with something that has drastically altered many of their (our) lives. And the determination to see real change happen at TM. That was the point of the conference call. This is the action.

    "With that in mind I'm curious how many enjoy it and really aren't seeking healing and how many are tired of it and wants healing?"

    I know that your intentions are sincere, but this statement reeks with condescension and judgment. How dare you tell me what the face of my healing looks like? How dare you accuse (albeit passive aggresively) us of enjoying our pain?

  30. While I do not necessarily agree with the way several of the anon's have addressed some of the issues on here, I do agree with a lot of the overall heart that we may have lost a bit of the battle with the way that we handled ourselves on the call last night, namely by RA. I have silently been a part of this site since its inception and have read every single post and most of the comments so I am very familiar with what has been said and I will say that I 100% think that there needs to be healing here and I value and appreciate RA and the heart that she has to see healing in their lives. I think that alot of people who's eyes could have been opened to the issues were most likely closed based on the fact that we in some ways sounded bitter, dismissive and disrespectful. Yes RA had a reason as she is hurt and yes she is only human. Yes all that is valid but yes it is also valid that if we want people to listen to us we have remain calm and not attack each other or other people because like it or not people are watching….what are we showing them?

    also people keep saying well we are just human….well my thought would be so are the people leading TM but yet they have no grace and everyone should give us grace because "we don't abuse people"…this seems to be the mentality and I hope we can see the falicy here. There is much abuse happening on this site by the people that have been abused like it or not.

    Bottom line, nothing is ever going to make every single person happy, its not gonna happen. I do hope that the call last night was able to add some closure to some people's lives and bring some healing. If you recieved healing last night as a result of the call and are ready to move forward with your life, please leave a comment as that is what we all want, healing right? If even 1 person got healing last night I would say that the call was beneficial.

    anyway, these are my scattered thoughts for what their worth….tear apart at will 🙂

  31. You know what? You guys are right. There was some anger and passion in my tone last night. Jesus never displayed that level of anger or passion when dealing with spiritual abusers (AKA Pharisees), so I don't know what I was thinking. Its not like he ever called them thieves or snakes. Please forgive me for calling a spade a spade.

  32. I was the first anonymous commenter (10:01).

    Shannon, actually I have been reading this blog for a very long time. I have read every post (and about 95% of the comments) and have read the forum as well.

    I am not saying what RA is doing is wrong. I am thankful that she is so compassionate, caring, knowledgeable, and an advocate for those that were hurt, and a voice of caution for those to come. I recognize that she cares deeply for the people that have voiced their stories and for all the past, current, and future interns.

    The point I tried to make in my original post was that I think she may have come across very angry, defensive, and in an attacking manner to many people from the moment she identified herself. I realize that she most likely had a lot of passion and emotion listening to the call, but this was not the first time she had communicated with Dave. I was personally very surprised with how she talked to him. Believe me, I have spoken with many people who have hurt me or who have been rude to me. It is not easy to talk in a calm and respectful manner. BUT…. if that conversation is conducted in a peaceful way both parties are normally able to get their point across and be heard. I'm also concerned that other alumni and staff may have been turned off to the issues brought up on this site, because they will say she she sounded "bitter," disrespectful, etc.

    I do believe that we are suppose to help others heal, and to confront the person/people/institution that hurt us. I just believe that the confrontation must be done in a respectful manner. I understand that it is extremely difficult to be respectful to someone that you feel has hurt you or disrespected you and others, but often times (fairly or unfairly) the validity of what you are saying is diminished by how you say it.

    -Sarah

    (I chose to comment under anonymous because, due to what I do for a living, I did not want this site to come up if my name was searched on the internet).

  33. Layne,

    I appreciate your comments…..what your saying is valid "This _is_ the "now what?" This is the seeking, the need for a group of people to reconcile with something that has drastically altered many of their (our) lives. And the determination to see real change happen at TM. That was the point of the conference call. This is the action." I would say that the general idea though is that it doesn't seem like there is solid concern to see real change happen. It SEEMS that there is a few people that want that but also a large amount of people are just down right angry and upset and it doesn't SEEM that there is anything TM can do to correct that.

    Bottom line, we need to be people that can stay calm, present the facts, not point accusatory fingers without merit and really desire people to see positive change in their lives. The biggest thing is that it doesn't SEEM that this is the case, i think thats a lot of what the TM supporters are saying.

    just something to think about….

  34. Healing won't come from attacking the person you are accusing.

  35. RA, I hope you realize the weight of the responsibility that is on your shoulders. This isn't about you and your personal recovery anymore. You gave that up when you decided to lead a bunch of other people (in varying stages of maturity) through your process.

    What is about you is where you lead this group of people from here. That is what you are going to be held accountable for someday. I hope you are able to let your anger simmer down a little bit, pray, listen to the Holy Spirit and use wisdom as you move forward.

  36. Oops. Sorry about the double post. I didn't realize you couldn't delete your own anonymous comment.

    -Sarah

  37. RA – what did DH do to you directly? If he did something it sounds like he is willing to talk about it.

    If he didn't hurt you directly, then a lot of this falls under the category of slander, gossip, and backbiting.

  38. I hope that those of you reading these comments from anon's will not just pass these off as "The TM Party Line" as really alot of these comments have come from and are coming from very strong supporters of this site.

  39. Healing won't come from attacking the person you are accusing.

  40. Brenda Bertrand said once that if you're simply waiting for your chance to speak… then you're not really being a good listener.

    RA had to keep her cool last night while speaking with someone who A) Has a history of spiritual condescension, B) Completely changed his tone once he realized he was speaking to her and C) Made it obvious (through the inflection in his voice and the way he chose to speak to her) that he was simply waiting for her to shut-up so that he could get out what he wanted to say.

    I don't think that RA was catty or snide in any way. She was simply dealing with someone who is used to having his own way. Used to calling the shots. I'm not sure how I would have handled it. I'm sure that in spite of my most dedicated efforts, I would have betrayed a small amount of emotion… and perhaps disgust for a man so eager to belittle the concerns of hurt people.

    Alex_S… really, your comment means nothing.

  41. how does it mean nothing??? It shows you that alot of people that support you are coming to you and saying hey, whats up here?? What are we doing?? Its saying, guys we're messing up here….how can you say it means nothing that our own supporters are no longer agreeing with us?? this blows my mind

  42. To Anon 11:31, if a compulsive liar (of course I speak of David Hasz) tells you that he isn't lying, would you believe him? I think that RA did the right thing standing up to this grade A jerk. Fortunatly we have his statement that he isn't lying on record so when the truth is revealed it'll sting double). He claims to be free of moral failures but isn't lying and covering up decades of abuse a moral failure?

    Anon

  43. People use a fake name at least….all these anon's!, giving me a headache! 🙂

    Anon at 11:51, just out of curiosity how are you going to reveal the truth about the "lie" he made? its someone else's word against his. Further, show me how he is a compulsive liar with actual facts….

    THE BIG GUY! (not my real name)

  44. RA you accused Dave of calling someone "a wicked sinner" for having alcohol in his home. I know that Dave does not even hold that belief. He believes it is wise for leaders not to drink in front of somone that it may cause them to stumble, but he doesn't believe it is a sin to drink or have alcohol in their home. He would never call someone "a wicked sinner" for such a thing. I don't understand why you chose to believe that story and spend your time confronting him about that. Anyone that knows Dave personally knows this is true.

  45. DH claims that he has never ever been approached by two people (according to the Biblical model) about any personal failures or things that needed to be changed. Wouldn't it be because he sidelines people that he doesn't want to work with and pushes them out of the cult? They don't get the chance to get to the "come with your brother" stage.

    Also, isn't it nice to know that (presuming that DH is in fact a Christian) that while he prayed about what to say on the call that God only gave him visions of packing his bags and living under a bridge in Alaska? If God is calling him to ministry then he doesn't seem to be praying to my God.

    Anon

  46. How do you know that "really alot of these comments have come from and are coming from very strong supporters of this site"? I'm intrigued.

  47. I don't think it's wise or appropriate to question another person's "christianity" or faith, nor his lack or ability to hear god's voice. These are things TM does to people, and part of what we are fighting to help change. I wont stand behind it here, too.

  48. Honestly, I really don't understand the controversy about my tone. Is it because I didn't call him Mr. Hasz? Is it because I insisted he answer the actual question? Is it because I treated him as an equal instead of a superior being?

    And honestly, He lied multiple times throughout the call. Either that, or he is grossly unaware of what is going on at his own ministry.

    I'm sorry if people were upset by my tone of voice…but I would ask you if that means you are just setting yourself up to be decived by a smooth talker?

  49. Nunquam Honorablus | June 29, 2010 at 5:11 pm | Reply

    I don't understand it, either. I just listened to it, hoping to find SOMETHING.

    You were totally calm the whole time. Holy cow.

  50. Ya know what? For me personally, I have come to recognize that there is NOTHING that DH or anyone else at TM could do to make me "happy" in this situation. I will not personally be content with ANY changes they make and STILL have a ministry running. Just being very honest here.

    So my personal involvment in this community is ONLY that of offering a supportive voice to those who have been hurt and are finding their healing WHATEVER that looks like. As far as DH goes, I couldn't care less what changes are being made. I don't believe this ministry should exsist. I am fully entitled to that opinion. I would also speak up to caution future HA participants to NOT GO.

    Knowing that this is my personal feeling, while listening to the call last night, there was one specific thing I was waiting to hear and never did. I don't really care about the changes made so that was a big waste of my time. I heard DH admit wrongs were done. I heard him admit fault for certain situations (though ususally prefaced with the "if it happened") and I heard him say that in the earlier years in GV (which is when i was there) there were alot of things that were just plain not right. What I did NOT hear was a sincere, heartfelt HUMBLE apology for those wrongs. No ifs ands or buts, no defensiveness, just "I was wrong. I hurt people. I did things that I shouldn't have done and said things I shouldn't have said. I am so sorry for hurting you" I have decided that I will NEVER hear that from him and I have to just let it go. Admitedly, if I heard that apology, it would help settle things in my own heart for past abuse, but, I would still not be happy with there being an HA or even TM at all.

    But that is me. That is my personal feeling. If my friends in this community would be happy to see changes made and the HA continue to function and grow, I will not argue with them that it should not. I will show up to conference calls and voice my support for them on this blog and in the forums because their healing is going to look different than mine. Also, just because I don't believe anyone should go to the HA doesn't mean they won't and I will be here to support them when they do go, are abused, and realize they aren't alone in their hurts.

    If you have something to say to go against my opninions, save your time because you will not change my mind by arguing. If you think anyone here is only bitter and petty and whatever other names have been slung at us and your only goal here is to point that out, kindly, quietly, hit your back button because you're wasting your time.

    I don't go to other support groups that I have no personal involvment in and start harping on them and pointing fingers and calling names. I have no business there and if you aren't here to help our community, you have no business here either.

  51. no we're not setting ourselves up to be decieved by a smooth talker but we are setting ourselves up by someone who has said, come to this site where you can recieve healing and overcome the abuse that was made to you and then we find that the leader of this site SEEMS not really desire that…….but instead seems to just be frustrated and upset. I no longer see healing here as the number 1 thing but more so the hope of getting our point across and to me that is not why I joined in on this site. I joined this site to fellowship with other believers, to share my struggles and to hopefully receive healing by voicing what happened to me. I did receive that but now I am honestly a little concerned about the future direction. I guess its just my perspective and opinion but it has not so much to do with your tone on how you dealt with him but you would ask a question and then wouldn't really let him answer or it seemed you weren't okay with any answer. To me why even ask questions to him if you already set yourself up to not really want to listen to what he has to say….I just don't get it

  52. Honestly, I was shocked more by the way Dave spoke to RA. When she was mid sentence and he asked if it was His turn. I would think that a man who is a head of a ministry that is in question would be a whole lot more humble when speaking to the person who is raising legitimate questions.

    I think he just didn't like being stood up to. He knows that many of us would never have the courage to stand up to him like that. So he feeds on our insecurity.

    Have you ever stood up to a bully after years or months of being bullied? Do any of you remember what it's like to stand face to face with adrenaline pumping and years worth of issues to be confronted? It's kind of like the bully in the movies that gets himself punched at the end because the little guy He hurt all during the film finally stands up.

    I think we can remember someone else who stood up to a giant from the Bible. Remember David and Goliath? David didn't walk up to Goliath and play around. He let him have it. Goliath picked on David's people and all were to weak to stand up for themselves. Thank God David had the heart to stand.

    I think RA was just doing the same thing.

  53. First, Dave did that because RA started out her whole conversation by asking him to let her finish her whole question before jumping in so obviously asking if it was his turn would be appropriate if she told him to wait.

    second you said RA was just doing the same thing, does that make it right?

  54. Anon at 12:14 – I see where the confusion is. To me, this call was NOT primarily about healing. It was about PREVENTING ABUSE OF CURRENT AND FUTURE INTERNS.

    All of us who have been hurt are working through our issues – but shouldn't we speak out when people are continuing to be hurt?? I outlined a list of injuries, both physical and emotional – that happened during ESOAL in the past 3 years. DH dismissed them. That tells me that people are still in danger.

    Hope that clarifies.

  55. The fact that he claims he didn't KNOW about all these injuries does not mean they didn't happen. As you said to him RA, (paraphrasing) "Now you know. What are you going to do about it?" and his response????? Saying he wasn't aware of these incidents and so he doesn't think they are happening or that there are further changes needed. Brilliant! Shove your head further in the sand, Dave. Thats how you love your interns, right?

  56. well why don't you be pro-active then Anon and tell him what exactly you'd have him do to prevent each issue then….what are you doing?

  57. Oh he's made it perfectly clear that he's not interested in what I would have him do.

  58. I can say the sky is hot pink, that doesn't make it true.

    I'm pretty sure DH didn't dismiss your concerns. He said something about anytime you have 500+ teens doing physical activities for a week you are going to have some injuries.

    Your perspective is more focused on proving yourself right than it is the truth.

    That is very obvious.

  59. "Anytime you have 500+ teens doing physical activities for a week you are going to have some injuries"

    Are you effing kidding me?? REALLY?! This is a valid defense??

    Say to the one injured…sucks to be you! Had to be someone!

  60. that's because he doesn't submit his life or ministry to a novice.

  61. Anon 12:20

    With much respect…
    I'm not saying we should just go punching people out like the little guy in the movie.

    Maybe my writing doesn't convey my thoughts correctly. I'm just trying to point out that sometimes, a person has to speak firmly and boldly when confronting a Giant. Especially, when others lives are being affected as well.

    It is hard enough for many of us to speak with "Mr. Hasz." He has a way of making the person who is abused feel like it is all their fault.

    Also, I wasn't saying a person should not wait their turn or even ask when the other person is finished. It's just the condescending tone in his voice that I questioned.

    Thanks.

  62. I think it is something inside of you. . .

    Most people thought DH was meek, humble, and open last night. He asked for forgiveness, he said they were going to do better, he didn't raise his voice or change his tone, he answered with grace and mercy. etc, etc, etc.

    I think there are those that just won't be happy with him or TM no matter what is said or done.

    I simply think some of you don't know how to handle a strong leader. You take things personal and misunderstand their words and heart.

    Now you will hear nothing they say even when they ask for forgiveness.

    You have become unreasonable. Apply the same standards to your life and live them before you try to make others live by them.

  63. To reiterate a comment from the chat room last night.. "Recovering Alumni Conference Call is the new HA LTE!"

    My head is spinning. When and how did this place become invaded with people who tow the TM party line?

    Look, TM Party line folks.. you have a forum (though no one uses it) that you can go an bad mouth all of us sinners and wicked alumni who have disgraced the name of the Great Hasz.

    Please go away and leave us to our peaceful blog once again!

  64. Shut down ESOAL comletely. That's a good start.

  65. No one is condemning you. No one is bad mouthing you. No one is towing any company line. If anything, most people are giving verses.

    Insulting, name calling, accusations, and disrespect have come mostly from the bloggers here.

    You guys have rallied behind a dangerous cause. Not saying you didn't get hurt, but you are going about this all the wrong way.

  66. Anon @12:56 What Conference call line were you on? The first or second. Because I think you may have attended a different one from me. DH did apologize, and I will give him that.

    The rest of his time on the mic before live Q&A sounded like he was reading from a script. There was no emotion in his voice… which is understandable given the immense amount of questions.

    BUT, when it got to Q&A it was very obvious when he got upset, frustrated, etc. His entire tone with RA was dismissive and not really wanting to answer her questions.

    There were other questions that he answered in which I could hear the sincerity in his voice.

    So, for you to say that there was no change in his tone is complete BS. You obviously were listening to another conference call. Even if the tone changed to show more sensitivity (which it did at times) it still changed!

  67. Anon @1:07- Oh Wise one, please tell me how to go about this the correct way?

    And apparently I am reading the wrong blog because I haven't seen but 3-4 verses actually discussed.

  68. Shannon – you are a very angry and disturbed person.

    I didn't hear dismissiveness in his voice, but if you did, can you blame him?

    Some of those questions were completely absurd. A few callers just rambled on. They like to hear themselves talk.

    The one girl was so freaked out, I thought her head was going to pop off. She lacked self control.

    I thought he did an outstanding job with you people.

  69. "disturbed person" "you people"

    Wow.

  70. Scriptural versus? Where? Vague biblical references? Yes, I see a few of those. Mostly I have been reading a lot of "get over it" and "god helps those who help themselves" type of speech. And, also, several people asking those of you who are only here to be abusive to the bloggers to please take yourselves elsewhere.

  71. "If you are only trying to help people recover, then why all of the personal attacks and hate? It was obvious in your voice last night."

    "She was full of resentment and anger. You could hear it in her voice. Poisonous. I feel bad for her."

    "DH sounded sincere last night. He answered every question immediately and without hesitation. Even when some callers tried a gotcha method, he remained at peace and answered them."

    "You want to name others, yet you yourselves don't want to be named. Yes I am anonymous and that doesn't bring any less validity to my point."

    "If so, why do you continue to use stories and verses from the Bible…
    Anything about Jesus or God should clearly not be in your vocabulary."

    "With that in mind I'm curious how many enjoy it and really aren't seeking healing and how many are tired of it and wants healing?"

    "Allow God to be the judge. You just stay humble and holy."

    "You gave that up when you decided to lead a bunch of other people (in varying stages of maturity) through your process."

    "If he didn't hurt you directly, then a lot of this falls under the category of slander, gossip, and backbiting."

    "Healing won't come from attacking the person you are accusing."

    "He would never call someone "a wicked sinner" for such a thing."

    "Your perspective is more focused on proving yourself right than it is the truth."

    "that's because he doesn't submit his life or ministry to a novice."

    "I simply think some of you don't know how to handle a strong leader. You take things personal and misunderstand their words and heart."

    "Some of those questions were completely absurd. A few callers just rambled on. They like to hear themselves talk."

    Yea. No scriptures. Just a lot of typical Teen Mania nonsense.

  72. Allyse, THANK YOU for compiling that list.

  73. Dear Recovering Alumni,

    Just listened to last nights call. I am concerned that all of your bottled-up hate and anger could tragically derail your health and in turn, your life.

    You've done your part, now move on… You don't have to forgive (That's your choice), but for the love… MOVE ON!!!

    It's over, it's done…

    Gezzzzzz

  74. Its not done until people are no longer abused.

  75. Anon 12:56

    You said, "I simply think some of you don't know how to handle a strong leader. You take things personal and misunderstand their words and heart."

    To this I must say, I go to a church where leadership is very important. I have a Pastor that is considered a very strong leader. I am friends with him and his wife. They are mentors to me and have great passage to speak into my life as "strongly" as they would like. NEVER IN MY experience with them have they made me feel less of a person for confronting them. Their voice NEVER takes a condescending tone but rather one of Love and Peace.

    and You also said, "I think it is something inside of you. . ."
    I haven't heard something like this since my days at TM. How do you know the heart of a person, or what is inside them. Should I judge you by the fruit of your words and how you just replied to me as to what is in you?

    I tried to engage into a conversation with you with much care but you returned your thoughts in a much harsher way.

    And to all the others who are speaking so roughly to Shannon Kish. I don't know her but I would think that we should give a person more respect and the love of GOd who is not a believer. Let us be careful and mindful of each other. Speaking in Love… That's how the world will know that we are different.

    Thanks again.

  76. Jami Carter before you attack me saying I did nothing and there for will be responsible for all the further interns who will be effected you need to ask/know a few more facts. When I found out the staff member had said things about me to other interns she was no longer on staff. When the other staff member corrected instead of counseled I felt I was the one in the wrong. She was in authority over me so of course if she thought I was wrong, I must be. I didn't want to go back to her and request counseling nor did she offer it despite the fact that is how it all started. She was gone after my year. Now looking back I can say "Hey, you corrected when you should have counseled!" Seeing how both ladies are gone and have been since I graduated from my undergrad year there's really nothing TMM can do about their actions other then to say they’re sorry. I actually did send Dave an email about the situations not so he could look those women up, but for when he is talking to the staff and advisors now he can help them not do the same to another intern. Now, I really want to see healing to all who seek it. My questions have to do with seeing the same thing walked out in my own family and not seeing healing come from it. My grandma doesn't know she has a problem. She truly believes it's everyone else. Guess what? She now thinks my dad said something to me this weekend and I'm mad at her. *sigh* I'm tired of her drama.

  77. One of the biggest lessons that adults have to learn (even Christian ones!) is that apologizing doesn't mean there are no consequences for your actions. Maybe this is easier for me to understand because I am the mother of a toddler.

    Jennifer, I'm sorry you felt attacked. I merely responded to what I felt like was a passive-aggressive jab at the people on this blog in the most straightforward way I could. I'm glad that you emailed Dave about your concerns, and hope that as a result it brought change and potentially lightened at least one intern's emotional load.

  78. RA was totally disrespectful and was asking the questions in a attacking manner, instead of a peaceful manner as Hasz was doing regardless of his disagreements. Anyway it was great to hear everyone's opinions on both sides of the issue and i agreed with some of the points that got presented in the call. I half expected to hear people whining and bashing Hasz, but I was surprised that almost all of you conducted yourselves with understanding and presented your comments in a respectful manner. Anyway thank you for helping me to better understand where some of you are coming from and presenting your facts with love. God bless you all my brothers and sister!

  79. I love quotes. I do feel hurt by TMM. I have tried for years to come to terms with my time at TMM. This place is at the top of my list in healing.

    I would like to say one thing, now this is out of context, and some of those here despise the militarization, please see past that and see the heart of why I like this quote… In relation to TMM.

    If you love the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen

  80. Brian A above

  81. I love the sandwich statements going on here in a weak attempt at hiding the undercurrent of meanness behind comments.

    Such as…

    God Bless You (bread), you are whiney and weak (mustard), but thank you for being respectful (cheese) even though I didn't expect you to have any manners or standards (meat). I will be praying for your continued healing (last slice of bread).

    Amen!

  82. I don't know if you will ever really be happy. You have found quite a group here to rally around you and healing has ocurred. I, however, wonder if your mission here is going in an aimless direction now.

    Will you ever be happy with TM and how they treat people?

    Perhaps not.

    Is THIS what God intended for your 'time' (which is so precious and limited) to be spent on?

    I'm just not sure you will ever find an end….you are not the Messiah who came to heal, seek and save the lost. I know you know this truth, of course.

    Just carefully and lovingly hope this has been prayed over…(meaning the duration of this blog) – I am all for healing…but not at the expense of injuring others. (i.e. those who possibly are reading these stories thinking its OK to hold onto hurts….)

  83. BIG HEART – Don't worry, my mission was never to change TM. That isn't something I can do, or have the responsibility of doing. Since they only want to listen to a select few criticisms, we'll go back to what we do best. Loving and supporting each other while we emerge from hurt, legalism and condemnation.

  84. Teen Mania is like a great big assembly line factory cranking out clones that act and speak like Dave and Ron. They have one mold that they try to squeeze everyone into, and if you don't fit, you fail.

    Is Dave Hasz to blame for this? Yes. But so is Ron and the Board of Directors. When you lead a ministry, you take responsibility for what happens in it. The sheep are your responsibility when you choose to be the shepherd. It was great that Dave apologized, but now let's see some true repentance and change.

    Are people acting out inappropriately against TM? Maybe. But that does not negate the fact that TM is extremely flawed and needs a complete overhaul.

    Dave Hasz can sound as compassionate and humble as he wants, but many of us have witnessed otherwise. If he is truly repentant, there needs to be some real and measurable change at TM.

    That being said, I'm not holding my breath. It is God who directs the hearts, and if Dave Hasz, Ron Luce and the Board of Directors continue in the way they are going, then that is between them and God. They will continue in their errors, and we will continue to speak out against them. That is our right.

  85. ok after reading the comments, I’m sad.
    to the people that say we are just bitter. what do you do when you are hurt by someone (someone that you respect, admire, someone you see as a father figure, a great leader etc…) and you go to them and say you hurt me with X. But they will not listen. Or they say there is something in your life for feeling that way.
    What do you do with your hurt(s)?
    Do you simple just move on and get over it?
    DO you not try to talk to that person or someone to figure out why are you are hurt and what do you do so you do not get hurt moving forward.
    I don’t think if it was “YOU”, you would buy the whole just move on line.
    No you would protect yourself and try to get to the bottom of WHY you feel this way. IF you are not heard you will press on. So why are we different from you?

    All we are asking for is to be heard, understood, talk the situation out.
    For some of us this has not happened yet.

    Last night’s call was frustrating on many level.
    At time I felt Hasz was real, But his smug elitist remarks at the end of his comments would canceled out what he just said.

    As long as the Elitist, superior leadership style continues. No one will be truly heard, because the disclaimer will always be “ They are bitter” “The motives of their heart is impure, so therefore I’m not in the wrong”
    There is more alumnus than RA that have spoken up. If the majority are hitting the same road block. Would you not to start to question why is that.

    Yes emotions will get in the way. Hurt feelings will cause that. But if you take time to listen, the layers will be peeled back, you will see the root.
    And once the root is found then the healing can begin. That is all IM asking

    MM

  86. "listen to a select few criticisms" Really??? David Hasz opened the phones for you to answer Your questions. Not to mention taking the time to respond to emails that was sent in and taking the time to talk with some of you fine people. It seems it was you (RA) that did not really want to talk nor help those hurt by TM. Instead you used your time in a attacking manner and not showing the love of Christ as you spoke to Hasz. You had a great opportunity to get your message through in a loving and respectful manner, but instead you wasted it on unconfirmed accusations, half thought out questions and a bitter/angry tone. As you know sister, Hasz is apart of the family of God as you are, should you not treat DH as a brother? You should have kept "your cool" as you told your readers, as well as show love and grace through this blog as well as when you confront someone.

    You claim this site is to help others heal, yet you yourself are not healed. Please take this time to hear God's voice on this matter. Choose to live love sister and you will see changes as God works through you. God Bless sister!

  87. RA – Just wanted to thank you for all that you've done to bring us to this point. I was "*2'd" in line to say so last night but never got the chance. (For the record, I intended to thank Dave for his time and response as well.)

    I think there are three things that might be helpful to remember:

    1.) This is dialogue, movement even. It might not be all that needs to happen on TM's part (or perhaps even ours) but it's more than we've ever had before. I completed my internship over 15 years ago and what took me and my close "rebelTM" friends 10 years to figure out, some of you have been able to condense to a few good blogs and comments. The fact that we can be vulnerable with each other and that TM is listening in some way shape or form – this is healing, this is the momentum that we are all hoping and praying for.

    2.) In my sometimes humble opinion, one of the foundational pieces we've been injured by is a lack of humility. It is the lack of humility that creates a culture where judgmental, sleep-deprived, perfectionist workaholics can, and so easily do, hurt people, especially themselves. (Not throwing around names here – describing myself and my experience.) We were all there, regardless of the year, location, rotating staff, etc. The fundamentals of the culture itself has not changed, regardless of the circumstances that surround it – and that's what I hope we are able to communicate to TM, Dave, the Board, etc. But we can only do so by staying humble ourselves in this process.

    3.) RA, you've done us all a great service by bringing us together with one voice – and for future interns, I think our collective hope is that we can be the catalyst for change to create a new experience for them – a better one than we had. Anyone with kids (and a great number without) knows exactly what I'm talking about here – we're trying to create a better life – for us now and those who follow. If that's not a legacy to be proud of and thankful for, I'm not sure what is.

    Thanks to all who have been a part of this.

    P.S. This humility thing goes every which here folks. You try taking this on and see if your voice doesn't break a time or two with the passion and conviction you're feeling. Ease up a bit.

  88. I think RA did a great job last night. Yes, there was emotion in her voice, but as Tonia says — try to do what she's doing and not show emotion. I am proud of this community.

    RA, cheers to you. Thank you for creating this place for people to talk, share their stories, and heal.

    For those of you who accuse this community of anger and bitterness — please recognize that while some people are angry about their own experiences, what I see happening here is that people are getting angry on behalf of others.

    It is actually a pretty beautiful picture of brotherly and sisterly love that people are coming to the defense of others who have been hurt, saying, "This is not right. I will not let someone treat you like this."

    I feel privileged to have become a part of this community, even as an outsider to the HA culture. Thank you, RA.

  89. "It is actually a pretty beautiful picture of brotherly and sisterly love that people are coming to the defense of others who have been hurt, saying, 'This is not right. I will not let someone treat you like this.'"

    I totally agree. I feel like I've had a few years to deal with my Teen Mania related grievances and my husband has been a huge catalyst for healing. But that doesn't mean I'm not angered and repulsed by the things that others continue to go through.

  90. For everyone here, I just want to make a request that we ALL drop our defenses and respond with Love. There are some excellent points being made, and there is definitely a dialogue happening. But we (those who love this group) have a space to protect, and it is sacred. Those who disagree, that's great. You are welcome to state that in a gentle and dignified way. But can we all please be understanding that none of us are perfect, and none of us are going to "get it right"? Not DH, not RA, not anyone. But we can endeavor to Love. So please, can we put down our guns (even if rightfully fired) and continue our healing with Love, Truth, and Kindess? Even if you don't feel it from the "other side".

  91. Old School Betty | June 29, 2010 at 9:14 pm | Reply

    since all callers were muted until TM unmuted them, I am disappointed that almost ALL of the call was him reading @ lightening speed his letter as well as "answering" questions. Why could we not have have had the entire call conducted where we were allowed to actively call in and ask questions? Hard to get to the bottom of issues when questions were cherry picked apart? Why was he allowed to talk for 83 plus minutes straight at the beginning? I don't care who the person is conducting the call. We were on the call so alumni could have a place to express their concerns rather than sit through 90 minutes of a lecture.

    Financial abuse needs to be investigated further. If an intern is dismissed, all monies raised and alloccated to the ministry should be refunded. I go to school full-time. If I withdraw during the semester I am given a refund for whatever is left of my tuition.

    Second, by admitting they "work" interns a certain number of hours a week, they are admitting they are employing them. I bet the IRS would have a field day auditing that revelation.

    Third, I am waiting for TM to develop its own translation of Scripture. In light of the infamous "I beat my body" verse, wouldn't the TM verse translate to "I beat my buddy and make him my slave"?

    Fourth, read my thread under the forum called Jesus Perfume if you want a snapshot of what an alumni goes through 15 years later. Life happens.

    Fifth, if you take TM out of the picture entirely, Spiritual abuse is pervasive throughout the church. Look at it's history for furthwr clarification.

    So while others throw stones, I am going to build a temple to worship Yshua. While others say we stink because of what we dirtied our hands with, I am going to continue to reach out and minister. You call the entire situation a stench in the nostrils of God, but I call pouring my heart out before Him a sacrifice. Yes, we stink, but it is the essence of Jesus to those around us.

    We are all sinners. We all come from places of abuse. So stop kicking those of us who are wounded. It is a classic case of those who are abused, abuse.

    Forgiveness is a choice. It can take years for the emotional side of it to line up with the decision to do so. Healing is a process which cannot conform to anybody's mold of moral perception.

  92. Old School Betty | June 29, 2010 at 9:22 pm | Reply

    Thank you Carrie Saum. Lots of wisdom in your advice!

  93. There's so much I could say and would like to say regarding the comments made by Recovering Alumni last night and others on this blog. However, I'll leave it be as it's obvious there are those entrenched in their opinions and unwilling to change their minds, whether they be for or against Teen Mania and Dave Hasz.

    That being said, the argument that Teen Mania needs to refund money comes from a position of ignorance regarding IRS rules governing 501(c)(3) and tax deductible donations. In a nutshell, and as Mr. Hasz alluded to this last night, the only way to refund monies donated to Teen Mania would be if those funds were designated to each intern or missionary. Doing so does not release control of the funds to the organization, and therefore the donation is not considered tax deductible. Don't believe me? Look up the rules on donations to charitable organizations.

    There are some valid concerns regarding Teen Mania and the Honor Academy at this site. The refund of donations is not one of them. It is a non-issue and needs to be dropped if you expect credibility in other areas.

    Tim Lane
    January 1998

  94. Nunquam Honorablus | June 29, 2010 at 9:42 pm | Reply

    Tim- that's why RA dropped it; she admitted that she didn't know much about IRS mumbo jumbo, so she left it alone and moved on.

  95. I left TM two months into my G.I. year back in 2002 and had already paid for the first 6 months of that year. The money that I didn't "use" because I left early was refunded to me after a month or so of going back and forth with TM. I was given the line about not being able to get a refund, but in the end I was cut a check for the remaining money.

  96. Nunquam Honorablus | June 29, 2010 at 10:02 pm | Reply

    Wait, Anon 4:46, are you sure about that? Didn't Hasz say that that was illegal? Do you think maybe they just paid for it out of their own pockets? Cause that would be cool and noble of them, honestly. I'd hope that that's the case.

  97. Old School Betty | June 29, 2010 at 10:04 pm | Reply

    Tim.

    You cannot call it ignorance if interns are allocated numbers from which people can donate specifically to that intern's fund. If that is the case they are entitled to a refund. If somebody goes to the general fund, that all monies collected stay within the overhead. For the record I did work in the marketing office for a large 501(3)C, and am very familiar with the rules surrounding non-profit donations

  98. I can't remember how or why they were able to pay me, I just remember that my family was a bit pushy about getting the money back. I had to keep calling TM to remind them. They weren't too happy about it, but I did get a check in the end. Not really sure where the funds came from, though. It definitely went a long way towards healing since I didn't feel like I wasted my family's money on top of all the other overwhelming emotions.

  99. NH, I was referring to Old School Betty's comments just a few posts prior to mine. You are correct, RA did drop the issue and said she would have to look into it. She will find what Mr. Hasz was saying to be true and accurate.

    Old School Betty, I am quite familiar with the rules regarding donations to 501(c)(3) organizations as well as I am the secretary/treasurer at my church and on the finance committee for my denomination. While you may have worked in the marketing department of a 501(c)(3), the accounting for such an organization is a totally different beast, and I'm guessing you didn't have much experience in that area.

    The fact is, in order for donations to be tax deductible to the donors, the donations themselves aren't actually allocated to specific interns or missionaries. Again, per IRS regs, in order for a donation to be tax deductible, the donor has to relinquish all control of the funds to the organization. Allocating those funds to a specific intern or missionary is not relinquishing control. As Mr. Hasz said, the money goes into the general fund and once someone raises enough funds for the ministry they are allowed to take part in the internship or mission. Seeing as this is how donations work at TM and most churches, it is impossible to refund money if you leave early.

    Again, don't take my word for it, even though I've dealt with these issues for several years now. Look at the IRS regs concerning donations to a 501(c)(3).

    This is all I'll have to say on the matter. Again, there are other valid issues here, this is not one of them and you'll get nowhere by belaboring the point, because quite simply you're incorrect on your understanding of the issue.

    Tim Lane

  100. What does finances have to do with people being abused at the HA?

  101. I am anonymous at 4:46pm and 5:08pm. I was given an ID# for my account and used this ID# for all checks written to my TM Account. This may be why I was able to get a refund? I'm not sure. All I know is that I did receive the money back.

  102. Just to chime in with Tim remember how TM alwyas told your supporters not to write your name on the check? Because it was going to TM general fund, not a special fund for you.

  103. anon at 5:28. Finances speak to the integrity of the organization.

  104. Then whats with the ID# is that a loop hole for the no names rule?

  105. Tim, can you provide a link to this IRS regs you speak of?

  106. Anon @ 5:32, did you have supporters donate the money to you, or did you and your family pay the "tuition"? Was the money refunded to you in the same tax year as it was paid?

  107. Shannon,

    Take a look at Publication 526.

    Tim Lane

  108. Tim,

    Publication 526 is written for individuals trying to determine if a contribution they made is tax deductible. Do you have an actual IRS regulation I could look at? I am a CPA and audited 501(c)3 non-profits full time in a public accounting firm for many years as well as 990 informational tax return preparation. I'd like to research this issue personally.

    Thanks,
    Marci

  109. Hey before I log off for today I just want to leave you all with a scripture of encouragement.

    2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

    Good night and God bless you all.

  110. Old School Betty | June 30, 2010 at 12:36 am | Reply

    Touche' Tim!!!! Your knowledge and position of authority far exceeds mine when it comes to the finances of a Non-Profit, but I will digress and leave you with this to consider.

    Roughly 33% of TM operating budget comes from intern fundraising to attend the HA (www.guidestar.org). Considering TM must comply with the parameters of a 501(3), what matters most is that the money is generally donated and can be used for any reason. Therein lies the loophole.

    No wonder so many interns are dismissed without substantial cause or walk away jaded. TM has it made. Free "volunteer labor" they can dismiss at any time and a constant flow of operational donations to fund their projects. That means they can accept as many interns as they want, let them go at will, and keep the donated money without explanation. Sounds fishy to me.

    Granted, my experience with TM was good and I am glad RL doesn't draw an exorbitant paycheck, but the reality is people are walking away from there hurt, jaded and away from God completely.

    Are we world changers or bill changers? What about those who are wounded? I am not on a witchhunt to take down TM. Instead I am trying to understand their level of accountability. Call me ignorant, but heck, even Erin Brockovich had to start somewhere.

  111. My name went on all the checks that I paid for my HA intern year and my GE mission trip..not once was I asked not to write my name on the check.

  112. I have only made it an hour into the call and I just got to the topic of the "Not for everyone." dilemma. The problem is, when HA goes out to recruit new interns, they make the HA or the HAO seem like a perfectly happy, safe, and calm environment. I know this is a fact because at my time at HAO, I was told to withhold information. I.e. information about orange block, ESOAL, LTEs, work, and general life. I was only allowed to say that i was spiritually growing. How can someone with no information more than that make the financial, emotional, and Spiritual choice of going and then get pressured into staying once they realize that the HA or HAO was a very very bad choice.

  113. Marci,

    Pub 526 is clear that you must relinquish control of contributions in order for them to be tax deductible. There are a plethora of resources out there for churches which address this issue. For example, Richard Hammar has written extensively on it. I would refer you to his writings if you want to investigate further.

    Old School Betty,

    My point wasn't to say that there weren't valid concerns regarding TM. I think some of the issues brought up here are valid, and some are nothing more than folks with a sour attitude looking to complain about something. I'm just saying that the whole, "I got sent home so my money needs to be refunded" argument needs to be retired, because it's not so cut and dry as you gave TM money and they can give it back. Yours was not the first comment I'd seen regarding that particular issue.

    Tim Lane

  114. Tim, even trying to read the "introductory manual" of Publication 526 made my head spin. Thanks for the source, but there is a reason I chose the field I am in. 🙂

  115. ancient intern | June 30, 2010 at 3:12 am | Reply

    I am a follower of the blog and a rare contributor as well as being about twice as old as I was when I was an intern. It seems to me much of the problem is philosophical.

    I was an intern before DH was on staff, so I never knew him. It was interesting to listen to him apologizing for certain corporate culture issues related to the HA as many of these already existed before him: elitism, a sense of spiritual superiority, challenges in readjusting to the real world, etc. One reason TM has difficulty in changing from being performance-based, having an over much focus on confrontation/accountability, and valuing trying to create "a great experience" over safety considerations is that they have always been that way. These have been part of the ethos from the beginning.

    My concern is illustrated by the current discussion we are having: the HA seems to create an environment where there are big winners and big losers. If (like me) you have a wonderful experience, you love TM and tend to be very defensive about the ministry that changed your life. If (like many others) you got burned, it can take years to recover and cause untold pain and misery. I am not comfortable with this dichotomy.

    I believe there needs to be sincere fundamental, philosophical change to the core of the ethos of TM to try to stop this cycle of some people having an amazing experience and some having a miserable, damaging experience. I would like to see more grace exhibited to interns and help made available for those who are hurting. I believe this blog has tried to push for these things, and I hope that TM is moving in this direction.

  116. Just listened to what T.M. said on the call.
    I think you did great R.A.
    Thanks for saying what you did.
    🙂

  117. Now that we have whined, complained, and fought it out all day on this blog. I think I will get back to the post and answer the question! 🙂

    A common theme I am seeing, from both the conference call and in communicating with DH is that he is ignorant to what is going on at the HA.

    Multiple times throughout his conference call he made the statement "I am not aware that this happened" or similar.

    Unfortunately, while ignorance is bliss, it doesn't excuse the ignorance or the act. As the Executive Director of the HA it is DH's responsibility to know these things. The HA is under his direction and if leaders, who are under his umbrella, are not acting right, HE is responsible for it. The proverbial "crap" flows uphill.

    Ignorance CANNOT be used as a defense!

  118. I agree with Shannon. Dave seemed to hide behind the "I didn't know" excuse a bit too much for it to be reasonably believable. If he doesn't know what is going on, he is either never told anything (which I really really painfully doubt) or he just puts his fingers in his ears hoping that the problem will go away. A pure independent person needs to go into the program and see whats really going on. The whole story of the doctor saying that it was a great program was just one of those "Well so and so said this." Bullets that DH, RL, and TM in general will pull out to make themselves seem legitimate. The guy may be a certified Dr but the fact that his child (or children I didnt catch if it was plural) was one of the blessed interns means that he is going to hear a skewed story.

  119. My thing is this… Say he is really THAT ignorant to the goings on at the HA. What is he going to do to resolve that? Ignorance can only be used for a short time. Since RA and participants at this site have made the BOD and DH aware of these things he can no longer claim ignorance.

    I asked him this very question in email and on his FB wall. What will you be doing to make yourself and other senior leadership more aware of the goings on at the HA?

  120. Old School Betty | June 30, 2010 at 4:23 am | Reply

    Tim: Fair enough.

  121. Why are so many people who disagree with site, in effect wasting their time reading and commenting about our words and actions. If you disagree with us start your own blog and comment there. While the disscussions are amusing (with the faulty logic, and misuse of scripture, your biased opinions are not the focus of this blog. This site is for those who have been hurt by tmm. I have emailed Dave Hasz with my own concerns and was not satisfied with his response, and maybe I never will be, but who gave you the authority to come into our community and demean us?

  122. It's very obvious that this is not a blog
    about healing, it's a blog for people who
    can't let anything go and apparently
    need to constantly whine. No
    ministry is perfect an most people get hurt.
    MOVE ON, and get a life outside of your
    hurt.

  123. Ok, everyone – I've let you vent all day long with no moderation. Let's tone it down now.

  124. Ancient…you really nailed something I've never quite been able to put my finger on. Thank you for articulating that the way you did.

  125. Ok….so I'm listening to the conference call and the questions regarding Dave's rental property and what he gets paid. This is crazy! Would you want to be pinned down by what you are making?!?! Seriously….

  126. Regarding anon at 1:01AM June 30:

    There are legal requirements that allow for public inspection of how U.S. non-profit organizations spend their money. Salaries of some of the key people who run nonprofit organizations must be publicly disclosed. Along with that, potential conflicts of interest involving key people must be disclosed and avoided. That Dave Hasz is being paid rent for residential property is one of those potential situations. While TMM may comply with the legal requirements with respect to the IRS, I think it's reasonable to question such arrangements, particularly since such things can and have been abused, or at least give the appearance of impropriety.

    Meanwhile, Teen Mania is unique in that its founder has gone out on stage and wailed, "you don't want to be manipulated by a bunch of old people making money off destroying you." He himself opened the issue of old(er) people making money off teenagers. At that point, he put the issue of exactly how much he and other Teen Mania key people are making, from an operation supported by the fundraising of teenagers, out on the table. Pot, meet kettle. Doubly so now that the destructive aspects of the organization are coming to light.

  127. @Tonia: EXACTLY! Thank you! This gets to the heart of the problem with TM. Humility absolutely has to be the defining characteristic of a Christian. Lack of humility for too long has seemed to be the mark of a "Maniac". Everybody, my plea to you, be you on one line of the current conflict or the other…be humble or you negate your argument. To those who have attacked RA and the people who have made themselves vulnerable by exposing themselves on this blog, you're lack of humility is sadly what I've come to expect from those indoctrinated with TM's faulty theology. The wisest of you will, in a few years look back on your words today with shame, just as I and so many others did. The rest of you will continue to judge others without so much as glimpsing at yourselves or thinking of the hurt your words are causing other people.

    I feel I need to bring a rebuke to those who rudely and smugly ripped apart Shannon Kish across this thread. We're called to speak the truth in love and display the heart of Jesus Christ to unbelievers. You failed. I sincerely apologize for my brothers and sisters, Shannon.

    To the pro TM crowd. We're not attacking the HA or the ministry. We're trying to open leadership's eyes to policies and practices that have resulted in discouragement, depression, a false understanding of the character of God as a loving redeemer, and in a lot of cases…apostacy. People walk away from God because of how they're treated at the internship. Do you guys understand that? We're trying to ensure that that doesn't happen. We're trying to see the God of scripture glorified in the lives of those touched by the Honor Academy. We're trying to show TM that real leadership is about serving others, not getting them to serve your agenda, and that the true Christian walk is about humility, grace and forgiveness, not being the cream of the crop or being a world-changer or any of the lofty titles Ron gives out at ATFs.

    I forgive the rudeness and vitriol coming from *both* sides of this argument. Please, brothers and sisters, let's attempt to glorify God by working together. If people are hurt, then let TM see to their need as they should, and if they don't, then why don't you show your character and offer grace and understanding as opposed to the acrimony you've been willing to hurl at us? Thus far you have only solidified our assertions that the Honor Academy only breeds smug, self righteous pharisees. If a single one of you showed an inkling of compassion to any of us, then I'd say that yes, Teen Mania has changed=, the Holy Spirit has worked and shown TM leadership their errors. Then we could all move on without a twinge of conscience, as so many of you have suggested we need to do. Obviously this isn't the case, so we move forward.

    Grace and peace to *ALL* of you, my brothers and sisters in the Lord, through the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. May He be glorified mightily in your lives!

  128. 6/28/2010

    my bike ride through the city went well, just in case anyone was wondering. it was a beautiful june evening, heavy with the scent of a quick summer storm, alive with the cries of cicadas in the treetops.

    i thought about you all.
    i remembered my time there.
    i remembered the way they made me feel.
    i remembered the fear and sadness and hurt.

    goodbye teen mania.
    goodbye.

    you are invisible to me now as the earthy mist rises to fill my senses.

    **************************************************

    thank you ra for making this possible.

  129. my problems with last night's call:

    when dave was asked about his rental property and if he had received 80k for them, he laughed and said he received nowhere near 80k and WISHED he received 80k for rental properties. he made it sound as if this was an exorbitant amount of money that he had never been close to receiving for his rental properties to TM. then later in the call, RA presented tax documents stating he had indeed received 78k just 2 yrs ago. Dave admitted that was true, but he was getting less lately.
    The problem here is that when Dave first answered that question he made it sound as if 80k was such a ridiculously large sum of money that he would never attain through rental properties, when in fact just 2 yrs ago that was the exact amount he was receiving. it was misleading.

    The second problem I had with the call was when Dave said in the beginning that interns were dismissed when they stopped representing the image of the ministry that the leadership wanted to be portrayed. then later in the call, someone asked him more pointed questions about dismissals, and dave backtracked and tried to say that dismissals are only ever for the intern involved, and they only dismiss people for their own good and growth. well, dave, which is it? do you dismiss interns to protect the image of the ministry like you said in the beginning, or do you dismiss interns so they can "grow."

    he also said that they are "followed" once they are dismissed and guided with the issue they were dismissed for. that is NOT true. or if it is, it is a brand new thing! they did not follow or guide dismissed interns in the past. in the past dismissed interns were never "officially" contacted by tm again. they were kicked out and essentially forgotten. if this has changed, i would be EXTREMELY happy to hear about those changes, and wish dave would reveal what the exact system is now to continue to "guide" dismissed interns that have left. is there a weekly phone call? daily emails? how does this "guidance" look logistically?

    all that to say, i felt that dave answered questions according to what he felt the caller wanted to hear, and would something contradictory with another caller later on. this bothers me! there needs to be ONE answer for the same questions! consistency, transparency, and honesty!! these 3 core issues i feel are lacking.
    for example, when dave was asked if he made 80k on rentals, instead of scoffing at 80k and saying he wished he earned 80k, he could have said "not any more. that was 2 yrs ago." that would be much more honest than pretending 80k was such a large number he couldn't even imagine earning it on rentals.

  130. regarding financial integrity –

    When I was 16, I got my driver's license, learned to drive, and was given our family's hand-me-down car. I started my internship year shortly after (I was still 16), and my parents let me take the car all the way to Texas "to drive around town," not realizing how long of a drive it was to even get to a town. During my internship year (Aug 2000-01), my parents and I decided to donate my car to TM. My dad (the car was in his name) dealt with an actual staff person (he was my boss's boss and the director of our whole department), not an intern. The staff person promised to mail him a receipt for his donation, but my dad never received it. My dad called several times requesting the receipt for our car, but it never happened. Sorry, pops, no tax deduction for us. I think that's when my parents both started to question the organization's integrity.

    Meanwhile, the security crew (or maybe it was grounds) continued to drive my car all over campus. It was sad. They stripped it of all my band stickers (understandable), and apparently one of them crashed it and the trunk was replaced by a different colored piece. My poor car (I'd nicknamed her "Porsche") was abused just like me – twins! Anyway, there's no way TM forgot we'd donated the car. They were using it every day. Still, we were just swept under the rug, as if the car had fallen straight from heaven without our involvement. Shady.

  131. After receiving 78k and losing 6 rentals for the last 2 years. I too would be wishing I was making the 78k again.

    You guys are so narrow minded by your hate.

    Healing can't take place by attacking the one you accuse.

  132. IT'S OFFICIAL: You guys are a bunch of mal contents. You are unreasonable. You expect things from others that you yourself don't abide by.

    NOT ABOUT HEALING

    ABOUT GETTING EVEN OR PAYBACK

    SO OBVIOUS

  133. anon at 7:36 a.m.

    -not to mention that he lowered the rent during their financially strapped time.

    -really, non of that is anyones business. A bunch of teen agers and slightly older than teen agers telling adults how things should be run.

    Priceless

  134. Ancient intern–

    You said that so well. Wow. Thank you.

  135. slightly older than teenagers? I know that is how DH and the rest of the TM staff view us, as the same vulnerable teens we were when we were first under their spell. Sorry, my friend, there are some recent alumni who are still slightly older than teenagers but the majority active in this community are real live grown ups. Parents, professionals, active citizens, veterans even. You're just plain wrong 7:44

  136. Slightly older than teenagers? I'm 26… my husband is 28… We're stable and contributing members of society. We own a house. We pay taxes. At what point will we be old enough to "bandy wits" with the almighty Hasz?

  137. Old School Betty | June 30, 2010 at 2:11 pm | Reply

    37..which means when I was an intern, most of the interns NOW were still in diapers (does that mean I am slightly older than a teenager?)

    Thank you Jesus for makeup to paint my face and hair color to mask my gray hairs. Bless you L'Oreal and Mac Cosmetics!

    Ok, this old lady is going to go take a nap since she stayed up all night studying. I beat my body and make it my slave….I beat my body….I beat….

    Sleep Betty…Sleep! (grins)

    Please don't hate. I needed to inject a little humor into my morning quiet time!

  138. Ok, trying very very hard to be kind. Keep it light.

    That being said…

    "-really, non of that is anyones business. A bunch of teen agers and slightly older than teen agers telling adults how things should be run."

    I feel like this statement is a blinky-light red flag of a cultish mindset. I'm not sure if the individual meant it to sound this way, but this is how I read into it….

    **Don't question leadership. They are older and wiser, and they know what they are doing.**

  139. shouldcareless | June 30, 2010 at 3:49 pm | Reply

    "really, non of that is anyones business. A bunch of teen agers and slightly older than teen agers telling adults how things should be run."

    actually, it IS our business. if it is published by the IRS, then it is in fact our business. if it is public tax record, it is our business. if interns are in any way responsible for maintaining those properties, it is our business. if DH is misleading, or anything besides transparent about co-mingling finances or properties with TM, it is our business.

    as for someone slightly older than a teenager telling adults how to do things, that only reveals your age and youthful ignorance. many of us are 30+, and have our own business, non-profits, and churches that we operate. we are actually the MOST qualified to give advice.

  140. Some of us have teenagers of our own and are executives at organizations that more than triple TM's net worth.

    Some of us have gone to war.

    Some of us led large groups of people to war.

    Some of us were on staff at Teen Mania.

    Some of us were Project Directors.

    Some of us are the heads of other non-profit organizations.

    Some of us are taxpayers in the US, and have every right to question the practices of a tax-exempt NPO.

    Some of us were deeply, terribly hurt by this organization.

    Some of us would like to protect others from suffering that same hurt.

    The RA community isn't a bunch of malcontents. (which is indeed one word, by the way) We're not "slightly older than teen agers (sic)". We're not disgruntled.

    We're people. Real live people. People with the right and I daresay the civic responsibility to take Teen Mania to task on these issues. Nobody else is holding them accountable.

  141. wow 12:45 well said!

  142. mom of ex-intern | June 30, 2010 at 11:38 pm | Reply

    @ 12:25pm–VERY well said!

  143. VERY WELL SAID 12:45!

    As someone who gave nearly $5000.00 to TM during my year, I have EVERY right to know how they are spending mine, and my donors money.

    As a taxpayer, I have EVERY right to know the financial details of non-profits because their organization are subsidized by my tax money.

    In case you weren't aware, EVERY non-profit is required to make their financials public. You can view most, if not all, of them at http://www.guidestar.com You may have to register, but it is free. And guess what, you can even find out how much Ron Luce made last year.

  144. mom of ex-intern | July 1, 2010 at 3:46 am | Reply

    oops..I meant VERY well said to 12:45..sorry, typo :/

  145. I may have made some humorous comments, humorous to me and online friends, during the conference call the other night that others found objectionable.

    But after reading this entire comment section, anything I may later have felt ill-stated during the call I now recant. It's unbelievable the amount 'anons' who have commented rudely after nicely being asked to leave the "ra's" alone to discuss and encourage each other with recovery (the point of this site).

    I've been very impressed with the way each off-topic bashing, from either side, has been relatively quickly lassoed back to the point.

    I have several, by several I mean a heck of a lot, of HA friends who have been burned by the HA/leadership/who knows what all, and will probably never deal with these issues

    I'm very humbled to be able to support, without judging, the friends I have that are still dealing with these issues 10+ years after the fact.

    Thanks RA for the great community that you set up to aid in this recovery. I hope "outsiders" don't corrupt or sidetrack your intended purpose for this site.

  146. Liz (Engskow) Davila | July 2, 2010 at 6:24 pm | Reply

    KUDOS to anon @ 12:45!!

  147. Lots of love and respect to you, legless. I know you had a favorable time at the cult. So favorable, in fact, that you don't even refer to it as a cult. Thank you for seeing what others have gone through and being supportive through it all. It means a lot.

    Thanks to RA and all the other supporters as well. I wouldn't have been able to make it through this without you.

  148. Ok, I've been out of the loop for a few months, so I just listened to the call tonight. Did Dave really say that ESOAL lasts 4-5 days now??? My year it was only 48 hours…

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