Carl’s Story

It’s been 2 years now since I found the blog. I can’t even begin to tell you what a difference it’s made for me. I’ve tried so many times to write my story. It would mean so much to me to have someone read it. I have a folder on my computer dedicated to doing just that. Nine attempts, plus two rehashing points that have been made time and again on the blog. I even started a new one tonight. They sound arrogant. They’re long. They’re detailed. I get bored. I get distracted. And most importantly, I’m scared. When I take the time to be honest about it, I simply don’t want to. I don’t want to face that arrogant prick I used to be. I hate him. I really do. He was well intentioned. He was smart. Hell, I’ve always been smart. But he thought he knew everything and he would do anything to prove it.

I never thought about it, but in some ways I was one of the elite at the HA. Or maybe not one of the elite, but definitely in the upper echelons of the privileged. Most people knew who I was. I was very well liked. In my entire year, I was confronted twice, by the same girl. The first time was I had gone over the 1 hour rule on video games by 15 minutes. I had already shut the computer down and was waiting for her to bring back my handbook (which I think she was using to confront someone else). I tuned her out once she started describing how I was following the will of Satan. The second was over how the boys dormitory smelled during campus reset. How that was my fault, I don’t really know. Later, I was very often confronted by my second ACA, who was a semester behind me. I’m not saying that I was a model intern that semester, but I had grown beyond caring. He finally tried to bite my head off and I bit back. I told him that he didn’t know me and that was why I didn’t listen to him. He tried after that, a little, but I was already stuck in my opinion of him and continued to disregard him.

My managers were all great. I did not like being taken off Custodial to be placed in the GE call center. I was told that it was temporary. I had to complain to the Call Center manager, and even then I was transferred to ATF before I was actually sent back to Custodial. Apparently “we prayed over where to put you” goes out the window when quotas are low.

That really is the most aggravating thing about TM. Numbers. Everything has to be about numbers. Performance. When I stepped into the argument with Leadership over the Deep Ellum Outreach being shut down, I contacted Dave Hasz directly. He told me that some interns were too comfortable in that kind of environment and needed to be pushed out of their safety zones. The numbers the group was producing didn’t justify the risk. Really? How do you QUANTIFY taking the time to listen to someone everyone else ignores? How do you QUANTIFY buying food for someone who’s hungry? How do you QUANTIFY making any kind of difference in someone’s life? And risk? It’s risky to let someone feel comfortable? No, he was not talking about any of us getting pick-pocketed, or assaulted, or anything like that. He saw letting people be comfortable there as “risky”.

I got the impression that Dave didn’t like us going off campus for anything other than church and TM events. There was a Bed and Breakfast down the road from the campus. It had a big screen TV, dvd player, movies, and a coffee bar. In my second semester, it became a very popular hang out. Apparently someone got up in arms over that and it came back to Dave. In the end, Dave allowed people to go, but I really got the sense that he didn’t actually condone it, he simply couldn’t find any grounds to condemn it.

I wrote this earlier today. It’s what got me thinking about this again.

“I never really know how to talk about the abuse. It really only comes down to this. They stupidly believed that by forcing us all into the same mold we would somehow grow as “individuals.” They thought that we would learn how to make the right decisions by always forcing us to make the decision they deemed “right.” Never did it cross their minds that if they want individuals, they had to address us individually. If they wanted decision making, they had to let us MAKE DECISIONS! More importantly, they had to let us make WRONG DECISIONS!

Really, they didn’t want individuals, because individuals eventually move on. Teen Mania wanted to rule us the rest of our lives, so they could take credit for us, and so they could panhandle from us. Dave Hasz actually said in a lecture that we should take Teen Mania standards with us when we went out in the world, because we would be an example of Teen Mania interns for the rest of our lives. I really should have left right then and there because my brain clicked. “What he really just said was that Teen Mania was going to own us for the rest of our lives.”

They didn’t want us making decisions because decisions undermined their power. And more importantly, wrong decisions made them look bad. Their structure was designed so that every misstep was seen, criticized and confronted. Not living up to expectations meant not being a good Christian, or even a good person.

Teen Mania opened my eyes. I saw a sickness in the church. Arguing, bickering, backbiting. I began to see hate. Hate gays. Hate other religions. Hate other denominations. Hate ANYBODY who doesn’t agree with ME personally. Arrogance, pure and simple. And I wasn’t immune to it. When I look back, I saw it very much in myself. Mostly the arrogance, but there was also that hate issue. Or more accurate, fear and confusion.”

The thing that drives me nuts is that I saw the problems. I was aware that there was something wrong. I could see it in my friends. I could see it in how they were treated. I could see it in the ridiculous lies the leadership told. I would like to tell those stories, but really the belong to others. I skated. I was friends with girls and got nothing more than “be careful.” I understand that they got confronted, or at least one of them did.

I was a January in 2002. The night I graduated, I went to the Lizard Lounge in Deep Ellum. By 2003, I had figured out what TM had really been like. Not because of what I had been through, but because I began to see the impact it had had on my friends. In 2004, I was homeless in California. I found myself confronted for the first time with all the things Christian Fundamentalists teach to you fear. Sure, I had seen it before, but this was the first time I had ever had to really interact with people of other faiths and sexual orientations from my own. In 2005, I stopped attending church. I didn’t see the point. In 2006, I became a pagan. Not because of what TM or the HA did to me personally, but because of what they made me aware of in the world around me. In a way, I guess I ought to thank them for it.

That’s my story. I’m sharing it with you partly to make myself feel better. But also because “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.” -Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace (NOT Edmund Burke). If those of us who see the problems at Teen Mania keep silent, Teen Mania will never change. If I could meet the Teen Mania supporters face to face, I’d tell them DON’T SILENCE US! Don’t scold us, Don’t shame us. If you really love everything that Teen Mania is about, or is supposed to be about, then those of us who see the problem, acknowledge them, and talk about them are the ones who are going to see the problems fixed. Blind devotion to an ailing institution only guarantees it’s demise.

433 Comments on "Carl’s Story"

  1. "Really, they didn't want individuals, because individuals eventually move on"
    That's intense. You know, the college I go to always says our times here will be with us for the rest of our lives. That we will always be associated. But the crazy thing is, they don't have to brainwash us for that. They let us grow into the best possible versions of ourselves, and in the end, we're actually proud to be associated with our school. You can tell there is something wrong with TM when they are trying to force that outta people.

  2. It's so true hon. Thanks for telling your story regardless how small you think the offenses are. Also I think you are right they didn't want us to think seriously about anything because then we might make other choices. *hugs*

  3. Carl, thank you for sending this in after all your attempts … It's good to hear your perspective.

  4. "I contacted Dave Hasz directly. He told me that some interns were too comfortable in that kind of environment and needed to be pushed out of their safety zones. The numbers the group was producing didn't justify the risk."

    If he actually believed that, he would have promoted the Deep Ellum outreach to the majority of the internship who typically would not feel comfortable in an edgier environment. It was about control. He did(does) not like straight-edge/punk/goth/etc and he lied (or made up a stupid excuse) to squash a ministry that would have made those types of people feel wanted/needed/accepted/useful. Only the pretties get to feel that way at TM.

  5. > They stupidly believed that by forcing us all into the same mold we would somehow grow as "individuals." They thought that we would learn how to make the right decisions by always forcing us to make the decision they deemed "right."

    That is an excellent explanation of something I've seen at TM since the beginning. The problem of course is not something that can be addressed by superficial changes but would require their entire philosophy of ministry to be gutted and replaced.

  6. Carl said, "In 2006, I became a pagan."

    Just out of curiosity, by "pagan" do you simply mean you are no longer a Christian believer, or do you mean you actually believe or practice some sort of Paganism? Either way, it is an indictment of TM that they drive so many of the interns out of Christianity.

  7. Doug, TM would say that they didn't drive us from Christianity because we were never Christians to begin with. "True Christians cannot walk away from Christianity."

  8. Shannon, seriously? They say that? That makes me wonder how they can claim kids get"saved" at ATFs. Maybe those kids are also "not real Christians to begin with."…

  9. It's "Tails I win, heads you lose." They'll take credit for the conversions, but if you walk away it's on you.

  10. Carl S. Litchfield | April 10, 2012 at 10:52 pm | Reply

    Thanks, everyone for reading what I had to say *hugs redheaded one back*

    Eric, you're very right. The superficial changes TM adopts doesn't change the core of the issue, which is how they perceive interns to begin with. Interns are labor, pure and simple, a resource to be utilized, controlled, and discarded. It ties in with my personal problems with "Corporate America", but TM is worse because they try to make you personalize it and justify it with them.

    Doug, to answer your question, I consider myself Eclectic Pagan. That is to say that I learn from various religions and integrate what strikes me as True. In practice, I'm more of a non-practicing Solitary Wiccan or witch. In principle, I take a few broad strokes from Christianity, such as The Two Great Commandments, the symbolic meaning of the sacrifice of Christ, Paul's definition of love and faith, and the concepts of the Fruit of the Spirit. I do not, however, believe in the Deification of Christ. I accept it as a possibility, but I do not equate Jesus with God. I further do not believe the Deification of the Church, which is a principle that I think works as an unspoken rule among Christians.

    If anyone would like more clarification, you can ask here or on Facebook.

  11. Lots of Christians would say that a true Christian can't/won't walk away from Christianity, not just TM. True Christianity isn't dependent on the authenticity of others. It's dependent on Christ.

    It is still a shame (truly) that TM drove people away from Christianity, but I wouldn't say that anyone has ceased to be a Christian because of them.

  12. Bethany, you are correct that true Christianity is dependent on Christ. But can we really say no one stopped being a Christian because of TM? That after hearing a works based gospel for a year or longer, experiencing spiritual abuse, becoming distrustful of spiritual leaders and confused about what the very essence of Christianity is (hint: it's not that our performance/ works bring about salvation), people have walked away from Christianity–and all of these problems were directly tied to their experience at TM! This is why the distortions of the gospel preached there are SO dangerous! People reject the false doctrines they learn there, but they've been taught by TM that that IS what Christianity is about. And these are kids, not Bible scholars. The most they've learned about the Bible has often come from their year at TM. They reject a false gospel, but a year of being indoctrinated that it is the only true gospel makes it difficult not to reject Christianity as a whole!

  13. I was an intern with you Carl and I know some of your background. Do you blame your upbringing at all for your walking away? Your dad was (is?) A pastor. Or do you truly feel it's all due to your experience at TM. Please understand this as an objective question not an accusatory. Thanks.

  14. Last Anon… Carl says, "In 2005, I stopped attending church. I didn't see the point. In 2006, I became a pagan. Not because of what TM or the HA did to me personally, but because of what they made me aware of in the world around me. In a way, I guess I ought to thank them for it."

    I believe Carl has explained that TM indirectly steared him toward a different path. As such, I don't think it's a matter of "blame" (or, he doesn't seem to be blaming TM, just stating that TM had a hand in it). I could be wrong… this is just how I personally interpreted his words.

  15. Anon1:39~
    It comes across disingenuous when you volunteer personal information for carl while remaining anonymous yourself and then say your question is objective. Seems more like you just want to show off.

  16. Bethany: True Christianity isn't dependent on the authenticity of others. It's dependent on Christ.
    Me: Perhaps, but Paul wrote, “Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Surely we do not need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you or from you, do we? You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all; and you show that you are a letter of Christ, prepared by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts” (II Cor. 3:1-3)
    Paul uses as proof of the legitimacy of his ministry (i.e. his “letter of recommendation”) the effect his ministry had on the people he had taught and discipled. By this standard, Ron and Dave are not looking too good.

  17. Doug- so when Paul corrected a church, was that a poor reflection of him or were they just being disobedient? Who's fault was it?

    [Rest of comment redacted by RA]

  18. The point, anon, is that Paul understood that with leadership comes accountability–a point that Ron and Dave seem to have missed. If Ron and Dave really cared about The Kingdom they would recuse themselves from leadership positions in the Body of Christ.

  19. Anonymous 4/11 @1:39
    Wanderer is right that you're sharing my personal information in a public space without really offering something of yourself in return. That doesn't really establish trust. Nevertheless, I did publicly offer to field questions and I have no reason to hide my background.

    First, to clarify, my father is a United Methodist pastor. As is my mother, two of my dad's brothers, and my paternal grandfather was also a UM minister when he was alive. I was only 4 or 5 when my grandfather past away, so his influence on my life largely comes through my dad. Still, I think we can agree that this is a very strong church background.

    I have to object to your use of the word "blame". For one thing, blame infers a negative situation. My deconversion wasn't negative. It has had a very positive impact on my life. I'm now free to use the my ample God-given intelligence to formulate a proper opinion without having to stop and worry about what so-and-so at church would say.

    For another thing, for me to "blame" anyone says that such a person makes my decisions for me, or forces me to do things. That's simply not true and I know it. My deconversion was my own decision. I knew that it was going to happen and I did nothing to stop it. Dave Hasz and Ron Luce didn't tell me to stop being a Christian. They didn't hold a gun to my head. Neither did my parents, or my uncles. Blaming someone only undermines my autonomy.

    Everything plays it's part. Teen Mania is every bit a part of my background as my upbringing, my parents, my grandfather, everything. My story singles out Teen Mania not because they played a greater or lesser role in who I am, but because the point of the board is to discuss what TM did and how it impacted us. If we were on a blog about paganism, you would probably get the impression that my Wicca teacher was the reason I stopped being a Christian.

  20. Thanks for clarifying. Blame wasn't the right word, you're right. I have no further comment. (Don't tell my wife, she'd never believe I had nothing further to say, lol)

  21. Still, Carl, it does not speak well of the brand of "Christianity" promulgated by Ron and Dave that you felt you had to deconvert in order to be free to think for yourself. A Christianity that is truly informed by an ethic of love and respect for the dignity of all people would be more palatable than the authoritarian, misogynistic, legalistic, gay-bashing, right-wing militant version taught at TM, IMHO.

  22. Wiggle it, just a little bit!

  23. Doug,
    While you certainly have a point, that there's something distinctly wrong with Ron and Dave's brand of "Christianity", any kind of religious label, or really any label at all, tends to limit one's thinking. To go beyond the presumptions of a single set of thoughts and beliefs in any way, shape, or form tends to divorce oneself from the label.

  24. Anonymous @ 12:12
    "Wiggle it, just a little bit!"
    I don't know what that's supposed to mean.

  25. "See her this weekend.You hit it off?Come Turkey Day maybe you can stuff her."-Roger Sterling(John Slattery):"Mad Men".

    "I'm for whatever it takes to help you make it through the night.
    For some people,it's prayer.For some it's tranquilizers.
    For others it's a bottle of Jack Daniels.
    I beleive that man and God should go it alone without the witch doctor in the middle."-Francis Albert Sinatra.1916-1988."Old Blue Eyes".
    "When I was kid they taught us in Sunday School that people who drank beer,smoked cigarettes and played dominoes would not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
    If that's true,I've been bound for Hell since I was eight years old."
    -Willie Hugh Nelson.1933-Present."The Red Headed Stranger".

  26. Just Wondering | April 20, 2012 at 4:16 am | Reply

    KingBushwicktheToityToid,
    How does the Mad Men quote have any relevance to the conversation at all?

  27. Thanks for telling your story Carl. I know you a bit, but knowing your story at the HA a little bit, always helps me wrap my head around what my friends went through. You've inspired me to tell my story one day, but later because mine is different than a lot of yours…

    It's so sad they were so against the Deep Ellum. They were against Blood n' Fire too, and our involvement there, purely because of the name and labeling it a "goth church" when if a label could fit that place it was a "hippy love church." That church inspired me, and I am so thankful that TM insisted we get involved with the local church, even if they tried to require us not to be. Argh!

    Don't know if I asked you before, but since your parents are ministers, and you had this upbringing, do you filter your Paganism through that or were you able to rewire your thinking?

  28. Shanny
    Thank you for reading my story. I hope that when you're ready to share your own story, that you'll allow me to read it. But take your time. It isn't always an easy thing.

    My general impression is that when TM leadership is obsessed with the idea of Christians cutting off all ties with the rest of the world. Ellum is, by TM's definition, a very "worldly" place. Therefore, interns had no business being in Ellum for any reason, even going to church. I remember there being a ban on going to BnF, but I also remember it being lifted before it was ever enforced. However, some pretty crazy rules were implemented after I left.

    My filter for my beliefs is emotion, thinking, and reason. I feel the truth in what I read,hear, and see. I then try to plug it in with what I already know and reason what makes the most sense. As I said before, my upbringing is apart of who I am, so it plays it's role in my filter, but my present understanding has always outweighed any dedication I have to the past.

  29. I went to the HA last year and it was the best year of my life. But eveyone needs to forgive and forget. We are all human even RON and Dave. No one made anyone go to the HA and they was not forced to stay. They care about eveyone even YOU!!

  30. Doug Duncan | May 16, 2012 at 2:34 pm | Reply

    Anon 12:05,

    Glad you had such a good year, and I hope the next one is even better for you. Here is a question I have for you: How do you know that Ron and Dave care about everybody?

  31. Carl,
    Thanks for sharing your story… I was a January '02 intern myself and remember you vaguely. Ive been considering writing about my TM experience and subsequent deconversion for some time now. It's helpful to read your story knowing we were fellow interns (same year) … So thank you for this.

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